OK Guys, just want to check with people's opinions one last time before I start sending bullets down range.

I've not used Trail Boss before but with the 577 on the way, I thought I'd give it a try while getting comfortable with the rifle. I want to confirm that I have the procedures straight as load data for this powder isn't in my manuals.

1) I notice on the can it says formulated exclusively for use with Lead Bullets? But from what I read here and on the IMR website, jacket bullets are fine as well?

2) Are Federal 215 Primers OK or do I need to drop back to 210's?

3) Do I need to worry about filler?

4) Determine the position of the base of the bullet in the case, fill with Trail Boss to that line, weigh that charge, multiply by 70%, and that is the starting load?

Any answers and/or additional issues of concern are greatly appreciated!

Thanks.

I use it for a 458 win mag. I have shot lead and cast both. I used Federal 215 primers. I did not use any filler.

My big bore double rifles are Pedersoli Kodiak .72-calibers. Since Trail Boss is intended to create reduced power loads in large capacity straight cases - I think?? - perhaps a safer, superior solution might be obtained by using black powder? I believe the 577 basis case was first used with black powder (130-160 grains propelling 300-grain bullets and heavier). Were there some reason to avoid black powder, one of the volume-for-volume replacement black powders will accomplish the same result.

Using such bulky powders that are specifically intended for the purpose you have envisioned mitigates essentially all problems with no liabilities of their own.
***
And popping the cap on 110 grains of FFg propelling a 775-grain bullet downrange is a memorable rush.

Hope this helps.

quote:

1) I notice on the can it says formulated exclusively for use with Lead Bullets? But from what I read here and on the IMR website, jacket bullets are fine as well?

2) Are Federal 215 Primers OK or do I need to drop back to 210's?

3) Do I need to worry about filler?

4) Determine the position of the base of the bullet in the case, fill with Trail Boss to that line, weigh that charge, multiply by 70%, and that is the starting load?

Your grasp of the 70% rule is correct.

Never use fillers with Trailboss

It can be used with jacketed bullets also. IMR publishes some data for these slugs.....check with them re: your particular cartridge:

help@imrpowder.com

913-362-9455


Trailboss ignites very readily, I doubt that you'd need the 215.

Todd, you dog you, are you getting a 577 too! I really, really want to shoot a 577. I might need to make a trip down to Texas if you will let me shoot it a couple of times. I wanted to shoot the one Biebs had but I think it is already sold...LOLOL

Is Trail Boss like AA5744, for reduced power loads? Is it as "dirty" as AA5744 in terms of unfired powder that gets everywhere?

quote:

Is Trail Boss like AA5744, for reduced power loads? Is it as "dirty" as AA5744 in terms of unfired powder that gets everywhere?

It's a very bulky powder for Cowboy Action shooting, large capacity lead bullet rounds, replicating black powder cartridges, etc.
It burns very clean and no chance of double-charge as with powders like 5744, 4759, 2400 etc.

Thanks for the input guys. Loaded some 500NE with it last night. Didn't use filler and did use the 215 primers. Then started second guessing myself.

Dave, come on down anytime and we'll find something to shoot!

You will probably find that your rifle wont regulate with Trailboss. Velocity will likely be too low using thier prescribed loading formula. If you increase the powder charge much at all from what they recommend, pressure will rise sharply. That has been my experience and from what I've read, others have had pretty much the same results. Dont get me wrong...I do like Trailboss in other applications, but couldnt get my double to regulate with it. 5744 works like a charm for me with lighter bullet loads in my double.

Todd, I would be very interested in how your .500 loads perform. I stopped using reduced loads since AA5744 just seemed to make a big mess and get all in the action, etc., it was more trouble than it was worth. If Trail Boss works better and is cleaner that would be good to know.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

I stopped using reduced loads since AA5744 just seemed to make a big mess and get all in the action, etc., it was more trouble than it was worth.

+1 5744 is really dirty. I just stopped shooting reduced loads altogether.

Mike, I'll report back after my next range session. I figure the regulation might be a problem but I'm not looking to hunt with these loads, just a bit of range time staying familiar with the rifle. I haven't shot any reduced loads previously so we'll see if there is any real benefit to them.

55 gr of AA 5744 a piece of foam backer rod cut to compress a 1/4" Fed 215 primer and a 450 gr Woodleigh soft. Regulates pretty good (groups about 5" wide but level)in my .500 NE. Never thought it was THAT bad in regards to dirty. Shoots ~1750 fps in my rifle and is noticeably light for practice.

Tod,
Just send them a email they will give you load data for the 500 and 577. I do know Trail Boss dosen't like to be compressed. Great powder developed for the cowboy acton crowd to prevent doubble charging and give good ignition. I don't think you need mag primers.

Todd,

I use a lighter bullet to have reduced loads. In my 577s I use a 650 grain with anywhere from 107 to 120 grs of RL-15 and a fiber wad to fill space. A 577 case full of Trailboss makes me nervous. Maybe if I can talk Michael into a 577 New Exploration will can find out what trailboss is like in a BIG case.

Sam

Alright Sam, now I'm second guessing again after your post! Just sent them an email asking for load data for the 500NE and 577NE. I'll let you all know what they have to say about Trail Boss in these calibers.

.500 NE light load can also be done with 86 gr of R-15 with a whole Kynoch or equivalent of foam backer and a 450 gr Woodleigh soft. Michael said the the AA 5744 load looked better on the pressure graph...R-15 produced some ugly (but with in tolerable limits) secondary peaks.

AA 5744 and IMR 4198 work good for light loads in a full nitro gun but you better be careful in a black powder gun with these. Ignition is always the main problem with light charges in big cases. This is the reason for the ugly spikes and secondary peaks. Get good igniton every time and you will have good loads regardless of what powder is used. Trailboss is a very fast powder and may work fine but until I do my own testing or someone one else fills a 577 case full of it I'm going to be careful and fearful of it.
Years ago someone made cardboard tubes to glue into big nitro cases to reduce capacity for light loads. I wish I could find these again.

I think it was a smart move to send for load data from the manufacture. Much safer. There was some interest in using trail boss in the 458 Lott. I think it worked out to filing the case to the bottom of the bullet but not compressed. I am interested in what they will say on the load data.
Bill

Ok guys, I just got back from the range where I shot 20 rounds of the 500NE using Federal 215 Primers, 570gr TSX (10 rounds) and 570gr Barnes Banded Solid (10 rounds) over 24.5 grains of Trail Boss, no filler. This represented the 70% value of the powder to the base of the bullet. Man what FUN! No problems at all! Regulation was excellent being perfect on the vertical and about 3" apart at 50 yards. The rifle kicked about like a 243Win. No kidding! Sorry I didn't have the chrony with me today as my sons and I had quite a few weapons to shoot today.

No pressure signs at all. Very mild round. I never really saw a use for shooting reduced loads before but now I think I have a different perspective on that. It allowed me to completely focus on shooting the gun accurately, focusing on trigger pull and sight placement, knowing there was no kick about to happen. After shooting these 20 rounds, I shot 6 full house rounds at 50 yards off of sticks and have to say, they were the absolute best 6 consecutive rounds I've ever shot with that rifle. Below is a picture of the 6 rounds fired after the Trail Boss rounds. Notice that one bullet appears to be missing but actually went in the larger hole in the bottom of the center group.

Mike, the powder burned clean with absolutely no residue in the action or barrels. This is definitely something I'm going to play with a bit more. Just wanted to let you guys know how it went.

First 2 shots with 93.0grns of RL-15, pillow stuffing filler, CEB BBW#13 570gr Solid. R and L, no crossing. 50 yards off of sticks.



Next 2 shots with the full house load:



Last 2 shots with the full house load:

Thanks for the range report Todd. I will have to pick up some Trail Boss tomorrow and try out your .500 NE load.

Mike, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Lots of fun!

Lane,

I see where your reduced load with AA5744 is giving you 1750fps. Certainly reduced, but I'm thinking the Trail Boss stuff is more like 1100fps or so.

As mentioned, I didn't have my chrony set up today so I'm really guessing, but from the report and recoil, I'm thinking it is really low velocity. The report was about like a 22Mag. Maybe a little more but not much. No "crack". Recoil was non-existant. In fact, I shot my AK-47 right after the Trail Boss loads and thought the AK kicked a little harder! Another item of note is that the barrels never got hot, rather just warm. After I pulled the trigger on the first Trail Boss load, I burst out laughing!! Don't know why, but it just seemed funny to have tamed that rifle to such an extent.

I'll try to get back out to the range maybe next week. I'm doing some practice with the 300H&H getting ready for my New Zealand hunt. I leave for Christ Church on June 24th with the wife. So practice is certainly in order. I'll set up the Chrony on the next trip in order to get some more definitive data for us.

As far as the practicality of the reduced loads ... I think one could actually hunt pigs with this load without a problem. But after thinking about it this evening, it strikes me as another level of useful practice between the extreems of Dry Firing with snap caps on one end and Full House Loads on the other. To me, the Dry Firing has always been important for familiarity with the characteristics of how the trigger breaks. For me, this familiarity has been a key factor in shooting accurately. These reduced loads allowed me to remain focused on the trigger feel while demonstrating how well I controlled the weapon with the target impacts; something that is lacking with dry firing.

Anyway, it was a totally new experience for me and has my mind racing about how this can be useful.

Todd,

That's great now you have me interested! As soon as I get done harvesting I'll glue some gages of my 577 and 500 we'll see what pressure Trailboss runs. Thanks for being the one to try it.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Lane,

I see where your reduced load with AA5744 is giving you 1750fps. Certainly reduced, but I'm thinking the Trail Boss stuff is more like 1100fps or so.

I was shooting 450 gr bullets.

But...you have me intrigued with Trail Boss now. BTW...good shooting my friend.

I had another idea of how to use these reduced loads. We often talk of finishing a big bore range session with a 22LR, just to re-establish and reinforce proper shooting technique. The Trail Boss loads can be used to do the same thing but with the actual big bore rifle in hand.

Sorry to carry on but this is very interesting to me.

Sam, that would be great if you could get some pressure data on these loads.

Lane, I don't think you and I live that far from each other. We should arrange to meet at the range sometime!

Todd,
That would be great. PM sent.

Todd, to confirm, your load was 24.5 grains of Trail Boss, F215 primer, no filler, 570 grain bullet?

That stuff must be lighter than popcorn.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Todd, to confirm, your load was 24.5 grains of Trail Boss, F215 primer, no filler, 570 grain bullet?

Mike, I just double checked my data and that is correct. 24.5 grains of Trail Boss, F215 Primer, no filler, 570 grain TSX and 570gr Barnes Banded Solid. Both bullets shot to the same point of impact with no issues whatsoever.

Lane, it is very light and voluminous. The can has only 9 oz instead of 16 oz. I purchased two cans thinking I'd go through it quickly. But 20 rounds didn't make a dent in the can. It meters well out of a powder measure also but do check it a couple of times throughout the loading process as always.

I loaded up three different bullets, 570 grain Woodleigh SN, 570 grain Kynoch SN and 535 grain Woodleigh SN. Will see how they shoot in the morning. That Trail Boss is some weird stuff. It is almost like paper shavings coming out of paper shredder but in the shape of donuts. One cannister may be a lifetime supply.

I have been using it in reduced loads for a 416 B&M with gas checked lead cast 335 gr----its fun and will stomp a pig.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I loaded up three different bullets, 570 grain Woodleigh SN, 570 grain Kynoch SN and 535 grain Woodleigh SN. Will see how they shoot in the morning. That Trail Boss is some weird stuff. It is almost like paper shavings coming out of paper shredder but in the shape of donuts. One cannister may be a lifetime supply.

It is strange stuff, eh? And I was looking for a 5 lb canister!

Anticipating your review of it! Have fun!

Todd you should try some of the Barnes .510 450 and 300 gr bullets for the 50 110. I shoot these for practice loads in my 500s.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Todd you should try some of the Barnes .510 450 and 300 gr bullets for the 50 110. I shoot these for practice loads in my 500s.

Sam, are these cast or jacketed? Barnes Originals maybe?

Disregard Sam. I see them on the Barnes website. Originals. Cheaper plinking than with TSX or CEBs!

Any word from the range Mike?

Here is the report. Groups at 25 yards were not bad, about 2.5" slightly low (under an inch low). Groups at 50 yards opened up to about 6" and were about 4" low. With the 570 grain Woodleigh SN I got 921 fps average (946 fps right average/896 fps left average). With the 570 grain Kynoch I got 948 fps average (967 right average/929 fps left average). With the 535 grain Kynoch I got 966 fps average (963 fps right average/969 fps left average). The Woodleighs seemed to group better than the Kynoch. Powder burns very clean. All shots were out of my Heym .500 NE with 26" barrels.

Great Mike. Looks like my 1100fps estimate was not too far off after all!

What is your opinion on the usefulness of these loads? Especially to end a session of full power rounds to re-establish proper technique as done in the past with something like a 22lr?

Certainly could be used to practice technique, or off hand shooting. One thing is for sure, you can shoot a sh**load of the stuff without any sore shoulder or headache.