465H&H, No, she was not lactating. She was pregnant with her next offspring.

Lilguy, As far as PETA is concerned, I really don't care about them. They are irrational and will never be confused by the facts! I know the good that my dollars and the meat did for the community and I'm comfortable with that.

Buzz, I look forward to seeing you at the shows as well. I will be back to hunt with you guys again.

Cheers to all.

quote:

Was the cow you shot in this video lactating?

Good point. If indeed she wasn't, I'm wrong in my opinion.

Todd:

I am a lifelong hunter, member of the NRA, and NOT member of PETA but somehow your explanation that you didn't kill a cow with a calf just a pregnant cow just doesn't make me feel any better about this after I see the other cows and calves mulling around the fallen cow. These are as close to being sentient creatures as there are. Walking up to one and shooting it in the head just seems cruel.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Todd:

I am a lifelong hunter, member of the NRA, and NOT member of PETA but somehow your explanation that you didn't kill a cow with a calf just a pregnant cow just doesn't make me feel any better about this after I see the other cows and calves mulling around the fallen cow. These are as close to being sentient creatures as there are. Walking up to one and shooting it in the head just seems cruel.

I think everyone should follow his own conscience, I f you don't want to shoot an elephant don't shoot an elephant!

As for me I would love to hunt at least one elephant, but I want a big heavy tusked bull. That is the reason I have never hunted elephant because I can't afford a 80 to 100 lb bull! Like you I have no desire to shoot even adult small elephant, but that doesn't hinder others from doing just that as long as the quota is there, there is a need for the harvest! Taking PAC animals allows three things, #1 it stops them from eating the crops the people depend on to live, #2 supplies meat for the locals in a protene poor food supply, and #3 helps pay, with much needed funds for the game department's patrols of the habatat to keep down the poaching of not only hunting game but endangered species for the ILLEGAL BUSH MEAT TRADE.

Hello Dave,

First let me say that I respect your opinion. Elephant hunting IS a controversial topic for many reasons and all of us, even those who hunt them, feel attachment and compassion for them. I realize that seems counter intuitive, but no more so than the statement that hunters in general are the true conservationists and that we love the animals we hunt.

As Buzz points out in his Elephant Hunting DVD, an interesting fact about cow Elephant is that they have no menopause. They continue breeding until they die of old age. Therefore, they will all have calves of some age at all times. The issue with hunting cows is to make sure that any cow taken does not have a calf that is dependent on its mother for survival. If there is no dependent calf, she WILL be pregnant. Therefore there is no opportunity to shoot "Dry Cows" as they do not exist. That is the basis of Fiona's research she is doing in conjunction with Buzz's company. If I'm not mistaken, she is studying this in an attempt to help find answers for couples who are having trouble getting pregnant from the woman's standpoint.

But enough of the political statement as that's not my style. From a hunting standpoint, something around 3% of the rapidly expanding population of Zimbabwe's Elephants are tuskless. This is a trait that is deemed undesirable within the herd and the Wildlife Department issues a quota to be harvested as game management, just as we do in the US with taking out certain Whitetail Deer that exhibit undesirable antler traits.

There certainly are ways to tell which calves belong to which cows. I'm just a client, not a PH so I'm not the expert. PH's who are certified to hunt Elephants are highly trained in being able to make these determinations as well as a host of other considerations. We observed this herd of 5 animals for just over an hour before making the final stalk. Rich, my PH, observed the calves interacting with the cows and made the determination which one to take.

As I said, any video of Elephant hunting is likely to offend folks, even devoted hunters. I think that is because they are intelligent creatures. But the fact remains that the populations are at dangerously high levels now and management simply must be done in some form. I think most experts will tell you that taking a few mature bulls and tuskless cows is not going to be the answer in the long run. Culling will probably be necessary at some point. That, is truly a disturbing thing to watch.

In short Dave, it was not my intention to offend you or any one else in posting the video of my hunt. I did not post it to start a controversy over how many meals were provided or what calves belonged to what cows, etc, etc. I posted the video because I like watching other people's hunts and thought there might be some interest in watching mine, especially from the standpoint of how a double gun excels in dangerous game hunting.

The voice of reason is so rarely followed in todays world of shopping centers and plastic wrapped meat!

Well said Todd!

Very well said Todd and thanks for posting the video and your comments.

Todd, you owe no apologies to anyone and I think your explanation is excellent. If other hunters do not feel comfortable hunting elephant, that is their call and I respect it. One would hope that they would reciprocate.

Nice shooting, well done.

Hey guys, thanks for the comments.

Mike, I'm a bit new to AR but I've seen references to your charge video. Would you mind reposting it here or at least advising what thread it is on so that I can view it? With us both being in Texas, hopefully we can shoot together sometime. I hear you are excellent with a DR and I'm always looking to learn something from the best!

Cheers.

Todd

Hello Todd:

I also have no stomach for shooting cows. I have a quarter section of land I hunt on and the rule of thumb is bucks only; no does. To each his own .

HAVING SAID THAT, I congratulate you on your fine shooting and great handling of a double rifle in a dangerous situation and, for putting the cow down quickly and humanely .

Did you get a chance to recover any of the bullets? What type of bullet and load were you using?

Hey CPD4570,

I appreciate your opinion and the fact that you respect mine and others here. It is something that is often lacking here on AR as well as other forums and is refreshing to see.

I have recovered bullets on Bull Elephant before but so far, not on cows. I think the first one in this sequence was probably in there somewhere but it can be quite a chore to dig one out of an animal of this size as you can imagine!

As for what I was shooting, it was a 570gr Barnes Banded Solid from a 500 NE at somewhere around 2125fps. I'm a Barnes fan and as you probably know, double rifles are usually picky as to what loads they will shoot well, depending on what they were regulated with. I'm lucky in that my rifle shoots the Barnes solids and TSX's well.

In my rifle at 50 yards, the solids shoot about 1.5 to 2 inches apart with the left barrel striking at the 7 o'clock position. The TSX's also shoot about 1.5 inches but nearly on the same lateral plane. Good enough for minute of Buffalo or Elephant.

Cheers and good hunting. Todd

quote:

Originally posted by carpediem4570:
Hello Todd:

I also have no stomach for shooting cows. I have a quarter section of land I hunt on and the rule of thumb is bucks only; no does. To each his own .

Carpe, you're dancing stuff looks a bit gay, IMHO Therapy may be available. That being said, I shoot all the doe's and cull bucks (poor genetics) where I hunt. I don't shoot "trophy" bucks unless I'm going to put them on the wall. Just me.

Hey DD:

If by "gay" you mean happy, you are right. I can't imagine any other interpretation of the word .

If truth be known, I am having a harder time pulling the trigger the older I get. I hope to shake that off this season as I have been drawn for bull moose in my area. And with any luck, I should have one of my dr's up and running to do the job.

Kindest regards,

Good luck Carpe. If you get a moose with your DR post it here for us to enjoy.

a rough shot at el to hamburger calc's

l low high typ
male lb.s' 10000 14000 11000
female lb.s' 5000 7000 6000






elephant live wt. 11000

1/2 # hamburger 9,900 patty s
1/4 # hamburger 19,800 patty s

leather 9% 990
ivory 1% 110
bone 20% 2200
meat 45% 4950 *
waste 25% 2750
100%


* includes meat
intestinal parts
bone marrow
blood

Gentlemen,

One thing that I think should be said is that studies have shown that, in Zimbabwe there are over 65,000 too many elephants for the habitat.

The hunting of cows must be done.

I have also read that the population of elephants can double every 12 years...

As Buzz has stated if a cow does not have a DEPENDANT calf, she will be pregnant.

Just how many times have some of you guys shot a doe deer, cow elk, female pig, many of them were pregnant, what about shooting female doves, ducks, or hen turkeys.

No meat goes to waste in Zimbabwe.

The herd must be thinned.

Elk cows are pregnant from the end of September to the following June, Deer from Early November until the following June. Most of you have shot pregnant cows and does whether you knew it or not.

465H&H

All of the cow elk that I've taken were confirmed to be pregnant. While it makes me wince, I move on because I love to hunt.