I'm thinking of getting a 450 no.2 and ofcourse would be loading for it have a couple of questions.
1. does anyone have a "load" for it.
2. What is the PSI ?
3. Are there any full loads that don't require fillers?
I have read that it is around 13 tons compared to a 450 31/4 or the 470 which are around 17 tons. I can only assume its the larger case that accounts for the difference.I also read that the standard load was 480 gr. bullet with 2280 FPS.

Hi Phil,

I have a 450#2 Champlin Famars and am shooting 450, 480, & 500 gr. bullets out of it....I shoot any where from 87 to 89 grs of
RL 15...The casing has to have filler unless you plan to shoot it straight up into the air with every shot.. Chamber pressure is around 30,000...
Dropping that case into the chamber makes such a nice sound...Velocities will vary with the rifle and temp..

Mike

Phil

I too have a British double in 450 No2.

The 450 No2 case is so large that no matter what powder you use you must use filler.

I have good loads with IMR 3031, IMR4831 and RL 15.

My favorite powder with the 450, 480 and 500 gr bullets is RL 15. I use a foam plug cut out with a 50 BMG case. Dacron poly will also work. Which ever filler you use it must be compressed.

I use 89 grains of RL 15 with the 450 North Forks, and 88 grains with 480 Woodleighs, Soft and Solid, and 500gr Swift A Frames, 500gr Hornady Soft and 500gr Hornady old style Solids.

With 350 gr Hornady RN I use 81 gr of IMR 3031, with filler of course.

quote:

Originally posted by phill pittman:
I'm thinking of getting a 450 no.2 and ofcourse would be loading for it have a couple of questions.
1. does anyone have a "load" for it.

The loads above sound reasonable. Work up properly though.

quote:

3. Are there any full loads that don't require fillers?

No.

quote:

2. What is the PSI?

quote:

I have read that it is around 13 tons compared to a 450 31/4 or the 470 which are around 17 tons. I can only assume its the larger case that accounts for the difference.I also read that the standard load was 480 gr. bullet with 2280 FPS.

Some bad information in there. Original standard for the .450 No. 2 was 13 tons, and the .450 3 1/4" NE was 17 tons. The .470 was 14 tons. These were the old standards (which nobody uses any more) and were base crusher measurements of bolt thrust, NOT chamber pressure, which is quite different. For comparison, the old standards for these rounds (this is bolt thrust) were:

.450 3 1/4": 70 Cordite, 480 grain bullet = 2150 fps in a 28" barrel for 17 tons.

.450 No. 2: 80 Cordite, 480 grain bullet = 2175 fps in a 28" barrel for 13 tons.

.470 NE: 75 Cordite, 500 grain bullet = 2125 fps in a 31" barrel for 14 tons.

The modern CIP standards in use today (max average chamber pressure) are:

.450 3 1/4": 3050 BAR/44,236 PSI

.450 No. 2: 2800 BAR/40,610 PSI

.470 NE: 2700 BAR/39,160 PSI

These new standards approximate the old using modern measurement technology. Velocity standards haven't changed. The lowest max chamber pressure in the .400/.450/.470 group is the .500/.465 at 2450 BAR/35,534 PSI.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Thanks fellows. I guess I'm more concerned about pressures.My Speer book says that their 45-70 loads with strong actions ala Ruger "average"35,000cup.Don't know if thats chamber pressure or bolt thrust.Retriever says Chamber pressure is around 30,000 and 450 Nitro says 40,610PSI. What is the most critical, Chamber pressure or bolt thrust pressure in a double?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by phill pittman:
Thanks fellows. I guess I'm more concerned about pressures.My Speer book says that their 45-70 loads with strong actions ala Ruger "average"35,000cup.Don't know if thats chamber pressure or bolt thrust.Retriever says Chamber pressure is around 30,000 and 450 Nitro says 40,610PSI. What is the most critical, Chamber pressure or bolt thrust pressure in a double?[/
QUOTE]

Phill:

Are you speaking of buying a .450 No. 2, or doing a conversion on a shotgun action or single shot? Your question above makes me think the latter. Personally, I wouldn't do a full nitro double rifle conversion on a shotgun action.

A pressure of 35,000 CUP is chamber pressure in Copper Units of Pressure, which is not PSI, nor can it be converted to PSI. CUP is old technology and should not be used or relied on today. If you want to compare strong action .45/70 pressures to .450 No. 2 pressures, you need to get modern pressure data for the .45/70 loads.

Current CIP MAP for the .450 No. 2 is 40,610 PSI. That's the max that factory ammo can be loaded to, so it's normally loaded to somewhat under that limit, but not by a great deal.

Whether bolt thrust or chamber pressure is more critical just depends. What are you trying to do?
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro. I have purchased a Francotte double boxlock that has a set of sleeved 45-70 barrels and an extra set of 12 ga. barrels.I was thinking of rechambering and reregulating the 45-70 to 450no.2. The gun is a high end box lock with the double purdey bights and greener crossbolt with bushed rifle pins so its ok for heavy 45-70 loads of 1800 fps with 400 gr. bullets. But you are probably right about it not being strong enough for a Nitro. It is most perplexing to hear both sides of the shotgun conversion debate.Some will say ok and some ofcourse not. I even here the same aruguements about Merkel doubles. Some say its just a shotgun action made into a rifle etc.
I have heard some pretty knowledgible people say even the original Nitro expresses and shotguns were made on the same action. No extra heat treatment whatever. I suppose since those guys that made them are all 6 ft. under that no one really knows for sure. I know its always best to err on the safe side and I already have a Searcy 470 so the prudent thing to do is leave it as is.

Thanks for your input 450. You smoked me out. I have purchased Francotte which is a high end boxlock with double purdey bights, greener crossbolt and bushed rifle pins in excellent condition.It has a set of sleeved 45-70 barrels and an extra set of 12 ga. barrells. I was thinking of rechambering the 45-70 to 450no. 2 for the low pressure. It is ok with heavy 45-70 loads ie. 1800 fps with 400 gr. bullet . Because its such a nice gun I don't want to stress it or damage it, not to mention myself ,so I will probably err on the safe side and leave it as is. Its always interesting to hear the seemingly long standing shotgun action conversion arguement. I have heard from some very historically knowledgible people that the old Nitro expresses used the same actions as the shotguns with no extra bolstering or heat treatment and the other anti shotgun camp argue vehmently to the contrary. It may never be conclusively resolved i suspect because the craftsmen that made them have all gone 6 ft. under. However there is no doubt the modern steel exceeds the old stuff.

Hello Phill,
Glad to hear you still have that great looking Searcy.

Are you back in Whitehorse now?

phill

How much does the rifle weigh with the 45/70 bbls on it?

What is the diameter if the barrel just in front of the bbl flats. Not the width of both bbls, but the diameter of just one bbl?

quote:

Originally posted by phill pittman:
400 Nitro. I have purchased a Francotte double boxlock that has a set of sleeved 45-70 barrels and an extra set of 12 ga. barrels.I was thinking of rechambering and reregulating the 45-70 to 450no.2. The gun is a high end box lock with the double purdey bights and greener crossbolt with bushed rifle pins so its ok for heavy 45-70 loads of 1800 fps with 400 gr. bullets. But you are probably right about it not being strong enough for a Nitro. It is most perplexing to hear both sides of the shotgun conversion debate.Some will say ok and some ofcourse not. I even here the same aruguements about Merkel doubles. Some say its just a shotgun action made into a rifle etc.
I have heard some pretty knowledgible people say even the original Nitro expresses and shotguns were made on the same action. No extra heat treatment whatever. I suppose since those guys that made them are all 6 ft. under that no one really knows for sure. I know its always best to err on the safe side and I already have a Searcy 470 so the prudent thing to do is leave it as is.

Welcom Phill,
I have been told the Merkel double rifle frames are built to handle the extra stress of the rifle. The good news is all Merkel's use the same frame.
A quick look at my Accurate load guide shows 45-70 load for Ruger #1 with a 400 gr bullet at 1865 fps and 38300 psi. So if your load for the 450 No. 2 is 40,610 PSI. I dought you will have a problem as the Francotte is a well built gun with the double purdey bights and greener crossbolt with bushed rifle pins should be just fine. There have been several people who have done this conversion and not had to re regulate good luck.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by phill pittman:
Its always interesting to hear the seemingly long standing shotgun action conversion arguement.

Yes, it's amusing.

quote:

I have heard from some very historically knowledgible people that the old Nitro expresses used the same actions as the shotguns with no extra bolstering or heat treatment

They're not very knowledgable.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

hi Allen, Yes I'm back in the frozen land. About 1000 cariboo milled by the village last week. I decided to keep the Searcy .Actually my son talked me out of it. Bill Cooley- Those were my thoughts. However now I'm thinking of a 45-90 because the case capacity is a little more and 45-70s can be fired in it as well.I am thinking maybe a 450 gr. load but am going to have to check on bullets availabe in that weight. The 45-90 conversion is much simpler than a 450 2 because its just a me
atter of lengthing the chamber of the existing round. The 450#2 would require total rechambering as well a shimming the thinner rim of the 450.As for barrel wall thickness ,These are sleeved 12 ga. barrels so they should be more than thick enough. My concern was the strength of the action .