More than a few times I've read it requires 700-800 manhours to build a double rifle and have seen this manhour figure tossed around by more than a few people. Am thinking it is one of those urban myths that may of been true in the past but simply not so in this day and age.
Would a company like Chapuis, Searcy or even Heym stay in business for what they sell a rifle for if it actually took that many hours to build one?

Basic Chapuis UGEX can be had for under $5K. 5K divided by 700 = $7.14 per hour.

Searcy Classic or basic Heym, $18,000 divided by 700 = $25.71 per hour.

And then we have the recent batch of Sabatti's and we are back to the wages I quoted for the Chapuis.

These hourly rates do not even take into consideration the costs of materials to produce the rifles or the ammo to regulate them.

Considering the outlay a company would have in equipment costs, buildings, inventory, etc and then factoring in wages and benefits for workers I just don't see the 700-800 manhours per rifle as being an accurate figure in this day and age of CNC equipment, wood turners, etc. I do not doubt it is very labor intensive to build a double, but I just don't see it requiring 700-800 manhours for the rifles I mentioned.
Would be nice if one of the manufactors could chime in.
Cheers

Peter,

I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge about how double rifles are made. Most of us will never get into a quality gunmaker's shop to see the attention to detail that true craftsmen put into these rifles. Thank you for the photos and info. Please feel free to post many more.

Great topic Snowwolfe.

Trevor Proctor on occasion posts here. www.ttproctor.com

He's an independent rifle maker in northern England. I visited

him for 4 days a few years back. He too said 800 hours for a

best boxlock with scalaped back ala Westley Richards, and hidden

third fastener ala Purdey. It did not include engraving to any

degree. And from what I saw when I was there, I believe it.

Chopper lump bbls are labor intensive to a much greater degree

than the other methods.

Agreed! Great topic and great post by PeterDk. It's a pity that M K Owen doesn't get on here!
Peter.

Can understand the time for the higher quality, chopper lump barrels, etc.
Perhaps I should clairfy my original post and restate it is in reference to the more common rifles such as the Chapuis, Searcy, Heym, Merkel, and Sabitti rifles in their basic grades.

How long to build there basic standard models?

Hmmm.........wonder why Peter deleted his comments?

Interesting thread...

I spoked to the Gibbs owners here last week. The 4bore they have done took 1700+ hours to buildt.

Most of the high dollar doubles come with significant engraving, which I suspect plays large into the final price.
I believe Peter from london Rigby said his A grade rifles went through significantly more hand polishing than the B grade or it was vice versa.
In any event, If all the fancy metal work (engraving) was deleted, Just how many more man hours are involved in a production in a gun like this.
Can we talk mechanics and leave out the "art" work?

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Most of the high dollar doubles come with significant engraving, which I suspect plays large into the final price.
I believe Peter from london Rigby said his A grade rifles went through significantly more hand polishing than the B grade or it was vice versa.
In any event, If all the fancy metal work (engraving) was deleted, Just how many more man hours are involved in a production in a gun like this.
Can we talk mechanics and leave out the "art" work?

Yes, Peter did say that, plus a significant amount of hand fitting as well.

I've hear similar numbers for a best shotgun, possibly I read it in a H&H blurb. Then, I was told by someone who visited a Spanish gunmaker that the Spaniard didn't think it was that many hours.

Now, if it truly is 800 hours then a gun cannot be retailed for $5000. Or 10,000.

But we know absolutely that guns are being retailed for 5K and 10K.

So we have to conclude that the hour number is wrong for these guns.

I bet that modern machine methods have virtually eliminated hand fitting. Stocks and inletting are CNC - not just done on a duplicator with hand final fitting.The only hand work left is assembly and wood finish and (possibly) engraving which adds extra anyway.

Not counting engraving, maybe 5 hours hand work?

The big ones must take a lot more time to build. The prices on them are quite expensive, even without engraving. Ken Owen and Butch will both tell you this. Lots of fitting and precision to make a really high quality double. Any best double is expensive, if there was a short cut, someone would be making them for a cheap price, and that just doesn't happen. Ken Owen says easily a 1000 hours on a 4 bore without engraving. Butch has told me that he can build 7 470 or 500 nitro's for the same amount of time that it takes to make one 700 nitro or one 4 bore. I know both of these guys and don't doubt their words for a minute.

quote:

Originally posted by Oxon:
#1I've hear similar numbers for a best shotgun, possibly I read it in a H&H blurb. Then, I was told by someone who visited a Spanish gunmaker that the Spaniard didn't think it was that many hours.

Now, #2if it truly is 800 hours then a gun cannot be retailed for $5000. Or 10,000.

But we know absolutely that guns are being retailed for 5K and 10K.

#3So we have to conclude that the hour number is wrong for these guns.

#4I bet that modern machine methods have virtually eliminated hand fitting. Stocks and inletting are CNC - not just done on a duplicator with hand final fitting.The only hand work left is assembly and wood finish and #5(possibly) engraving which adds extra anyway.

Not counting engraving, maybe 5 hours hand work?

#1 If you have read anything concerning the building of anything with the H&H label on it, the 800 man hours is, if anything, low! This doesn't necessarily translate to double rifles like Merkel, which is totally hand fitted, but not to the degree of a H&H, and doesn't claim to be.

#2 I agree that a double rifle that takes 800 man hours is not going to sell for $5K-$10K, but 400 Man hours for a rifle like the 140E-1 double rifle from raw materials to finished rifle, shipped to the dealer, can still be sold in the $10K retail market. You have to understand that In the case of Merkel, being made in East Germany, the skilled labor wages are not what they are in the USA. Also in the case of Merkel, they are not selling for any $5K, and the MSRP is not $10K either. Some of the things you are seeing selling for the range you quote have been in the USA for some time, and were bought at much lower prices than they cost today. Things like the Sabattis are, for the most part machine made almost totally, and are, IMO, nowhere near the quality of fit and fit and finish of Merkel, Chapuis, or Krieghoff.

#3 The hours are wrong, at even 400 Man hours, for rifles like Sabatti. I would say no more than 50 hours of actual hand work is involved in the building of rifles like Sabatti Deluxe, and less for the plain models. If this is the type of rifle you are referring to, then I must agree.

#4 Modern CNC machining will never be able to duplicate hand fitting, you are in the clouds on that issue. CNC can only do the grunt work normally done by aprentices. The hand fitting of the action parts, fitting the barrels to the action, the setting, and soldering of barrels, ribs, wedges, carding down the barrels, is not only a time consuming process, but requires skilled hands as well. No machine in the world today can accomplish these operations. Regulating the barrels can only be done one way, BY HAND, by a man who knows what regulating is all about. Then the sights must also be regulated, and that is done by a sighter who is a very skilled person, who can make very fine filing adjustments to the sights. These things are not all done by the same person, and for every rifle shipped six to ten pairs of hands have had a hand in it's building. Just handing all the separate operations to the various people involved is time consuming.

#5 The engraving is another matter all together. First the quality of the engraving dictates a wide difference in time involved with engraving.

Merkel states that basic hand engraving adds from little to the cost of build, but customer ordered custom engraving will ad from 120-150 days to the delivery date, not to mention the cost. Engraving is not a necessary thing to the building of a working quality double rifle, and so is not included in this discussion in any meaning way. However, custom engraving taking 120-150 days to the over all build hours, considering 5 days per week for the engraver, 120 days minus 34 days off = 86 days for the engraving, and with 150 days minus 42 days off= 108 days at work. So there are 86 to 108, 8-hour days for the engraving alone, and all H&H rifles have loads of engraving, but they sell in the $150K clouds, and 800 man-hours is on the light side IMO. The custom engraving adds almost 1200 man-hours to the mix for the top of the line.

Since we are talking off the shelf rifles here, engraving doesn't apply to any extent, taking no more that 10 hours total to the finished product. Even on this type of rifle the hand fitting is a necessary thing if the rifle is worth owning. Even with the hours cut in half for the hand work alone that is a must, it still takes a large dose of man hours to finish & ship a rifle to the customer.

IMO, 400 man-hours for the off the shelf double rifle of any quality worth mentioning is not out of line! Even at the wages in the eastern block, by the time it gets to the customer in the USA, if it is selling for lass than $10K retail something has been left out!

Your last sentence made me spew coffee all over my keyboard!

........."Maybe 5 hours hand work!"
...........

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oxon:

#4 Modern CNC machining will never be able to duplicate hand fitting, you are in the clouds on that issue. CNC can only do the grunt work normally done by aprentices. The hand fitting of the action parts, fitting the barrels to the action, the setting, and soldering of barrels, ribs, wedges, carding down the barrels, is not only a time consuming process, but requires skilled hands as well. No machine in the world today can accomplish these operations. Regulating the barrels can only be done one way, BY HAND, by a man who knows what regulating is all about. Then the sights must also be regulated, and that is done by a sighter who is a very skilled person, who can make very fine filing adjustments to the sights. These things are not all done by the same person, and for every rifle shipped six to ten pairs of hands have had a hand in it's building. Just handing all the separate operations to the various people involved is time consuming.

#5 The engraving is another matter all together. First the quality of the engraving dictates a wide difference in time involved with engraving.

Your last sentence made me spew coffee all over my keyboard!

........."Maybe 5 hours hand work!"
...........

I have no reason to want to make you spew coffee (or anything else you wish to spew) but I will respond to your point #4 specifically.

You are completely wrong about this (Please don't spew!) EXCEPT for the regulation. Please find some information about Fabbri shotguns and the way the company is developing their technologies to make them. Yes, I know that shotguns are not rifles but your claim that modern precision machining such as CNC "will never duplicate hand fitting" is incorrect. Yes, I know that Fabbri shotguns might be the most expensive in the world (please don't spew) even in the white, but they are machine made.

I suspect that double rifles are not very much price-elastic. I don't think that the camo-enshrouded guys who shoot Rugers or Remchesters will buy a DR if the price comes down by a couple grand.

There are ways, many less destructive, other than spewing coffee on your keyboard to disagree with my last sentence

quote:

Originally posted by Oxon:
[
There are ways, many less destructive, other than spewing coffee on your keyboard to disagree with my last sentence

I spewed coffee through my nose because I was suddenly forced to laugh outloud at such a rediculous statement! "Maybe 5 hours of hand work!" Because of the accuracy of a CNC machine? I'd love to see any machine that can card down a barrel set, or polish a barrel set and apply a fine rust blacking, or fit the barrels to an action within the depth of a layer of smoke soot. Time a pair of selective ejectors so that cases come out side by side, and hit the ground within 5 inches of each other, Polish, and hone all the parts in the locks so that they are flawless in operation, .................... 5 hours indeed!

"Maybe 5 hours of hand work!"


maybe someone needs to put up a keyboard warning
on this thread LOL.


Oxon, thanks, your post made my week.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Oxon:
[
There are ways, many less destructive, other than spewing coffee on your keyboard to disagree with my last sentence

I spewed coffee through my nose because I was suddenly forced to laugh outloud at such a rediculous statement! "Maybe 5 hours of hand work!" Because of the accuracy of a CNC machine? I'd love to see any machine that can card down a barrel set, or polish a barrel set and apply a fine rust blacking, or fit the barrels to an action within the depth of a layer of smoke soot. Time a pair of selective ejectors so that cases come out side by side, and hit the ground within 5 inches of each other, Polish, and hone all the parts in the locks so that they are flawless in operation, .................... 5 hours indeed!

OK make it 20 hours. Feel any better?

Learn something about modern machining and the thickness of soot film. You don't need humans to do this work anymore and before you ruin more keyboards you might try studying the methods used by Ivo Fabbri and his company in making guns by machine.

quote:

Originally posted by Oxon:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Oxon:
[
There are ways, many less destructive, other than spewing coffee on your keyboard to disagree with my last sentence

I spewed coffee through my nose because I was suddenly forced to laugh outloud at such a rediculous statement! "Maybe 5 hours of hand work!" Because of the accuracy of a CNC machine? I'd love to see any machine that can card down a barrel set, or polish a barrel set and apply a fine rust blacking, or fit the barrels to an action within the depth of a layer of smoke soot. Time a pair of selective ejectors so that cases come out side by side, and hit the ground within 5 inches of each other, Polish, and hone all the parts in the locks so that they are flawless in operation, .................... 5 hours indeed!

OK make it 20 hours. Feel any better?

Learn something about modern machining and the thickness of soot film. You don't need humans to do this work anymore and before you ruin more keyboards you might try studying the methods used by Ivo Fabbri and his company in making guns by machine.

OXON

You crack me up.

Let's put it this way.

Do you honestly think that Holland's, Purdey's Boss & Co etc (plus of course all the high end quality European makers) would really train people for years and years to use a file if they could achieve the same thing in 1/20th of the time with a machine.

Where they can use CNC machines, they do and I am sure they would love to be able to pump out DR's at best quality using CNC machines and a little hand work but I am afraid it doesn't happen that way and I doubt it will in the future.

Oxon
I build double rifles for a living. I want to see the machine that can duplicate a trained barrel fitter. If you are talking a 15k double then machine work is acceptable. However you will find that all the top guns are hand finished. No machine is as adaptable as a human being!
Dirk Schimmel

I don't know you so I'm not trying to crack you up.

These rhetorical questions you ask cannot be answered since neither you nor I know just what the numbers are for H&H (to name just one) and they are very much like the questions such as; "If there weren't visitors from space, how could the ancients have built the pyramids?" How many people are "trained for years and years to use a file"? I don't know and neither do you. Hand fitting will always be needed to fabricate repair parts for existing guns.

Regulation and finishing are hand jobs, as is assembly.

Now if all the metal parts are machined to sub-micron tolerances then hand scraping and fitting are obviated. Period. Sub-micron tolerances are routine in many manufacturing situations. It isn't simply a matter of "copying" a present design and having a machine make the parts to extreme tolerance - a certain amount of re-design is needed. The design has to work with the technology employed.

Whenever a new technology comes along there will always be manufactories that are able to make money by using older technology. Gun making lends itself to these idiosyncratic shops and perhaps always will, but inevitably as entry price comes down, newer technology will replace the older.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't think the doublegun market is very price elastic and if, at any reasonable price, the market for, say, a 500 NE is 20 guns a year then maybe it is not worth the capital investment to re-engineer a gun or buy the equipment.

I don't really want to get into a ridiculing match with you. CNC is not any longer "state of the art" - newer, even more precise technologies are here and companies are beginning to use them in gunmaking.

You may not want to believe it, but the parts to what might be the finest-made shotgun in the world are made entirely by machine and there is no hand-finishing other than cosmetics.

Sorry, no little gnomes with smoke and files.

quote:

Originally posted by h2oboy:
Oxon
I build double rifles for a living. I want to see the machine that can duplicate a trained barrel fitter. If you are talking a 15k double then machine work is acceptable. However you will find that all the top guns are hand finished. No machine is as adaptable as a human being!
Dirk Schimmel

Dirk I agree with what you said. No machine is as adaptable as a human. That is splendid but it also means that no two things made by hand are precise enough to be interchangeable in a complex close-tolerance mechanism and parts made by machine are.

Quite simply, there are machines that can make parts to micron and sub-micron tolerances and do so repeatedly time after time.

And yes, all the fine DRs, including double shotguns, have a lot of hand work in them.

It may very well be the case that the market for fine guns is too small to warrant the cost/effort of modern machining, CNC and ion-beam and the like, and that hand-made guns will always reign but that is not my point - look at the work the Fabbris are doing with shotguns.

And please read my original post where I ran some rough numbers of price of guns vs number of hours claimed.

If you want a Gibbs 4-bore then it will have to be hand made as a one-off. And I can see that it would take 1700 or so hours to make one entirely by hand. That proves nothing. All it says is that the market for these DRs is best met by individual manufacture and that it is not feasible to redesign the gun and set up precision manufacturing for it.

I recently spent an obscene amount of money for a small telescope of modern manufacture. So far, the maker has sold about 8 instruments. If he could sell 1000 or more a month (or even year) it would probably be 1/10 the cost. Right now, if someone wants that telescope he has to buy the individually made one but it is entirely possible to make them, to even greater precision with truly interchangeable parts, by machine.

It seems Oxon wants to build assembly line double barreled RemChesters!
Gentlemen there is always someone who knows more than everyone else, however most of the people I know who own, and hunt with double rifles rather like the method used to make the double rifles we have today, instead of making the rifle to fit a machine. You know like a photograph being easier to take, and cheaper than it is to paint an oil painting of the same subject. However, anyone can take a picture with a camera. The painting, on the other hand requires a skill not duplicated by many other people. Cheap doesn't mean better, only cheaper made!

I would like to point out that not all CNC machines are created equal. CNC refers to the controller not the machine. You can use a CNC controller with a EDM machine to get parts in the 4+ decimal place tolerance. EDM is a machining method primarily used for hard metals or those that would be impossible to machine with traditional techniques. One critical limitation, however, is that EDM only works with materials that are electrically conductive. EDM or Electrical Discharge Machining, is especially well-suited for cutting intricate contours or delicate cavities that would be difficult to produce with a grinder, an end mill or other cutting tools. Metals that can be machined with EDM include hastalloy, hardened tool-steel, titanium, carbide, inconel and kovar.
Yes I believe it is posiable to make parts that are drop in and fit. I think there will alwas be a certin amount of hand work in the polishing and final fiting
Bill

We've been through this so many times in the knife industry. I own a CNC milling machine, Wire EDM and Sinker EDM. Just bought the sinker, so no true experience with it yet, but I have owned and operated a wire EDM for 12yrs now.

To a degree, Oxon is correct in that a gun can be made almost entirely by modern machine methods. There are several reasons NOT to do it. Financialy, the machines that can hold these tolerances, and do it fast enough are BIG money. Now you need an operator/design team to design and execute to bring the parts to life. You need a talented and gun expereienced staff. Now the facility....climate controled since metal expands when hot and shrinks when cold...loss of tolerances every time the temp changes. Climate controled doesn't mean just central AC/Heat either. Basicly, go to NASA and copy their setup. You not only need the machines to hold tolerances, but ALL of the machines must be holding the exact same tolerances. It's a tough thing to achieve.

In short, it is less expensive to blend the two schools, which is being done extensively. As an example, I can rough machine my rifle actions in about 7 hrs. That is just the outside surfaces. What I have at that point is a bunch of tool marks that are pretty course. In order to machine it to near finished surfaces, I would require at least another 18 hrs on the machine. I can pick up another action, put it on the mill, and file, stone and polish the first one before the second action is finished machining.

A good friend and well known knifemaker went on a kick about precision. He wanted EVERYTHING on his knives to be within .0003". I couldn't stand him when he was like that. What he found was that he was chasing anomalies and freak things like using the wrong lubricant on the slides of his machines. You end up chasing ghosts and pulling you hair out with a micrometer in hand.

In the end, presicion becomes a game of diminishing returns. That's why they still make files...

quote:

That's why they still make files.

Well said. A man who can truly use a file, and more importantly, knows WHEN to use one, has my utmost respect, because it sure ain't easy! Those gifted individuals are a rare breed indeed and it will be a sad day if the need to grow them ever passes. It won't be an easy skill to get back.

quote:

Originally posted by Oxon:
And yes, all the fine DRs, including double shotguns, have a lot of hand work in them.

It may very well be the case that the market for fine guns is too small to warrant the cost/effort of modern machining, CNC and ion-beam and the like, and that hand-made guns will always reign but that is not my point - look at the work the Fabbris are doing with shotguns.

And please read my original post where I ran some rough numbers of price of guns vs number of hours claimed.

Oxon
I did read your original post. And a gun that has 800 hours invested in it will not sell for 5 or 10k. I know from personal experience that there are guns being made in 100 hours and less. These are the guns in the 5-10k price range. There is nothing wrong with them unless you are expecting H&H. I also know how many hours it takes me to build a rifle. No I do not have an ion beam machine, ironicly I do work with some parts that are hardened in an ion beam machine. I am a firm believer in using technology for all it is worth. I am not arguing that machines are not capable of work more precise than human hands. I agree with you on this point. If every single part of the rifle were made on these machines to the same sub-micron tolerances. Then sure you could build a guns in only a few tens of hours. I think Bailey hit the nail on the head with his post.
To me part of the magic of a bespoke gun is the fact that it was made by skilled craftsman. The hours that went into its creation are part of its legacy. When you hold it in your hands you wish it could talk to tell you its story. It is a thing of beauty made with the passion and skill of real craftsman. And yes, I freely admit I am a little bias on this subject.

Dirk schimmel

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:

quote:

That's why they still make files.

Well said. A man who can truly use a file, and more importantly, knows WHEN to use one, has my utmost respect, because it sure ain't easy! Those gifted individuals are a rare breed indeed and it will be a sad day if the need to grow them ever passes. It won't be an easy skill to get back.

My thoughts exactly!

All this debate brings to mind how to start up a company to make these bespoke double rifles if so much craftmannship is required.
I suppose the "new" Rigby company may have hired some H&H or MacKay Brown, Westley Richards people away from their employer.
I would suspect these new start up companies have to rely heavier on modern machinery as "skilled" workman are not grown on trees these days and the market for their huge $$ offering is rather small. That is truely a niche market at 6 figure numbers.
I almost believe you would have to make shotguns as well as the market is significantly larger.

quote:

Originally posted by h2oboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Oxon:
And yes, all the fine DRs, including double shotguns, have a lot of hand work in them.

It may very well be the case that the market for fine guns is too small to warrant the cost/effort of modern machining, CNC and ion-beam and the like, and that hand-made guns will always reign but that is not my point - look at the work the Fabbris are doing with shotguns.

And please read my original post where I ran some rough numbers of price of guns vs number of hours claimed.

Oxon
I did read your original post. And a gun that has 800 hours invested in it will not sell for 5 or 10k. I know from personal experience that there are guns being made in 100 hours and less. These are the guns in the 5-10k price range. There is nothing wrong with them unless you are expecting H&H. I also know how many hours it takes me to build a rifle. No I do not have an ion beam machine, ironicly I do work with some parts that are hardened in an ion beam machine. I am a firm believer in using technology for all it is worth. I am not arguing that machines are not capable of work more precise than human hands. I agree with you on this point. If every single part of the rifle were made on these machines to the same sub-micron tolerances. Then sure you could build a guns in only a few tens of hours. I think Bailey hit the nail on the head with his post.
To me part of the magic of a bespoke gun is the fact that it was made by skilled craftsman. The hours that went into its creation are part of its legacy. When you hold it in your hands you wish it could talk to tell you its story. It is a thing of beauty made with the passion and skill of real craftsman. And yes, I freely admit I am a little bias on this subject.

Dirk schimmel

Agreed!! I do not dispute the number of hours it takes you to build a single rifle - and Baily is correct that technologies are blended - CNC plus files. Beretta have pioneered that and H&H are now using more and more modern machine techniques and outsourcing.

I, too like the input of human skill. I'm a reasonably competent amateur machinist and I design and make telescopes, including the optics. It is very satisfying. And the people I give these to appreciate them.

I like my custom guns very much, understanding the work that went into them and, in shotguns, can feel the difference between a machine-made Beretta and a H&H when I swing and shoot them.

And yes, it is near-NASA conditions that are needed for this kind of machining and Fabbri has done that. Some think they've gone in over their heads but nonetheless they are producing shotguns using these technologies and no smoke and files.

Single custom rifles are not made this way and I never said they were

The original question from Snowolfe had to do with the man hours that many people stated went into a double rifle. No one has really answered this. Let me attempt:
1. Small makers like M K Owen probably do not own the precision equipment that Krieghoff does, therefore to make the same product he probably has to do it by hand, with an existing action. he does not frequent the Internet, but I will call him and ask him, as I own one of his doubles. However, the end result of Ken's work is a unique gun, with wood of whatever quality was available etc.
2. The Krieghoff's etc almost certainly do own the equipment necessary to produce significant quantities in the quality desired, so that the hand fitting required is minimized. The end result is a production gun that while close to it's brothers is not identical and some fitting might be required if a spare barrel set, for example, were purchased. Multiple guns set on a rack would look very similar except for perhaps minor differences in wood.
3. While technically possible, there is probably not a market for mass produced double rifles with minimum hand fitting and priced appropriately, as most hunters do not want to go through the load development necessary to 'regulate" the guns, and even with the factory regulation load, if the rifle failed, in his hands, he would send it back, thereby increasing the initial cost of the rifle in order to provide the necessary customer support.
Such rifles do exist however, they are the over/under, Tikka/Valmet rifles. These do provide some adjustment mechanism to affect POI of one of the barrels. While these presumably sell better than the Krieghoffs and Merkels they are not exactly flooding the market! Additionally, the high end buyers "look down their noses" at these as being non traditional, less desirable etc.
So, Porsche buyers will always buy a Porsche, precisely because it is a Porsche and carries the name. Others who just want a S/S double rifle for it's looks (and it's functionality) will have to buy a K gun etc. Those who want a double for it's functionality only will buy the cheaper O/U variety.
I enjoy my K gun as well as my M K Owen, but I also enjoy my Tikka in 9.3x74R.
Bottom line is that I suspect part of the cache of the S/S double is it's price and comparative rarity.
Peter.

Bailey Bradshaw is right that it will be a blend of technologies and hand craftsmanship to build the double rifles in the future. The cost of labor is ever increasing.
I think main problem, as Bailey pointed out is the cost of the new technology verses the available market
You do see that nearly all makers are primarily shotgun makers especially the older makers.
Bill

Well I spoke to Ken Owen. He does not talk in terms of man hours but rather calendar time. he said it takes him 9 months to a year to build a rifle, depending on whether it is a box lock or a side lock. He investment casts his own actions and does all the work himself except for checkering, bluing and case coloring.
Hope this helps, Peter.