If you had the opportunity to choose, would you prefer your .500 NE DR with extractors only, or a system you could convert to ejector in about two minutes using only a screwdriver?

I've only done limited hunting, both with and without ejectors and it really does not make a difference.
As to the screwdriver question, the more gadgets there are, the more chances something will go south. Just another attempt to reinvent the wheel so a modern day gunsmith can take credit for the next great invention. I really can't imagine taking a screwdriver in the field and halting the safari to change from one to another.
Cal

Extractors.

I hate ejectors and only own one DR with them; hate them.
Train as you will fight and you can load and unload an extractor rifle quite quickly enough. They are just more machinery to go bad when you need it most.

grew up with DR's that were both
since I have been shooting them of 45+ years -
It depends

Hunting, mostly I prefer extractors,
as most properly built DR's drop their empties with a simple tilt or roll.

However, when re-selling,
the market prefers ejectors about 95% of the time -
very experienced DR owners (meaning those that have owned many) seem to be the exception to this

I think you are right; the new kids (under 50) think that everything needs to be automatic. (It doesn't)
I never think about re-sale value. Just performance in the field.

)I never think about re-sale value. Just performance in the field.[/quote]

+1

Resale will be the concern of whomever inherits my guns.

Extractors only

I must admit that when I first started into this madness called double rifles,I was very concerned with the question posted here,but now it bothers me not in the least if the gun is extractor or ejector,I have hunted big game with both & am happy with either,I shoot a lot before a hunt,I get very used to the gun before it goes with me on the hunt.

I am happy with my 2 extractor rifles..

I asked this question on the off chance that someone might bring up a new argument which I had not considered. This has not been the case.

I started shooting skeet in 1964 with a Browning Superposed. Since then, my accumulation of shotguns has included Perazzis, Krieghoffs and Merkels, all with ejectors. If I don't want to chase the empties, I just have to hold my hand over the breech when opening the action.

I own three other Krieghoff double rifles, all with ejectors. The ejector system is the least complicated of any I have encountered and I have never had one fail.

At age 80, I have to consider resale value, not for my own benefit, but for the benefit of my estate. I have just finished the task of helping a friend's widow liquidate his gun collection of over 250 assorted rifles, pistols and shotguns and I know how difficult and time consuming that can be.

Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts.

xausa,
Are all your Krieghoff double rifles O/U'S? I have read where you mentioned the 458 & the 375 set ,what other calibers are they in?

I had an extractor and did not like that setup. The VC I’m having built has ejectors.

I've had both. I know the resale value is better with ejectors, and my current VC has them, but my Merkel had extractors and I never found them lacking in any way.

I posted a video here on AR a while back showing how to conduct a quick reload with extractors. Ejectors are only slightly faster but the market believes otherwise.

I believe this preference for ejectors over extractors issue to be similar to the way the market initially preferred beavertail stocks upon the DR's popularity rebound once ammo became available again. A little time passed and guys started becoming more educated on the rifle type and all of a sudden, the proper splinter forearm was once again appreciated.

True.
Now, since the subject has been broached, let me comment on the "catching brass in your left hand" practice.
When you have an ejector gun, you do not want your expensive brass to fall onto the concrete floor of the shooting range. So, you instinctively cover the breech and catch them. I do that too, on my only ejector gun, a Chapuis 9.3.
Now, you do that every time in practice, and guess what; you will do that in the field as well. Thereby obviating any advantage you had with those ejectors, and bringing the reloading time to above what it would be if you just had extractors.
Train as you fight; we always taught the soldiers.
Ejectors? Just, no.
No one wants cars with manual transmissions any more either, except me; I will
not drive one. Same thought process. Automatic has to be better.
It ain't.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
xausa,
Are all your Krieghoff double rifles O/U'S? I have read where you mentioned the 458 & the 375 set ,what other calibers are they in?

9.3X74R and 8X65RS, both Ulm O/U sidelock action guns.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
True.
Now, since the subject has been broached, let me comment on the "catching brass in your left hand" practice.
When you have an ejector gun, you do not want your expensive brass to fall onto the concrete floor of the shooting range. So, you instinctively cover the breech and catch them. I do that too, on my only ejector gun, a Chapuis 9.3.
Now, you do that every time in practice, and guess what; you will do that in the field as well. Thereby obviating any advantage you had with those ejectors, and bringing the reloading time to above what it would be if you just had extractors.
Train as you fight; we always taught the soldiers.
Ejectors? Just, no.
No one wants cars with manual transmissions any more either, except me; I will
not drive one. Same thought process. Automatic has to be better.
It ain't.

Funny, all my O/U shotguns have single triggers and my double rifles have double triggers, but I never seem to get them mixed up.

My duck gun is a pump action, but I never forget to pump. My match rifles are part semiautomatic and part bolt gun, but I never forget to operate the bolt.

I catch the empties with my right hand.

Different strokes for different folks.

I see you have missed my point; which is, you are taking time to "catch brass"; which hand doesn't matter. I did't say that you did not know how to operate your rifles.
What matters is, any advantage that ejectors might have over plain extractors is nullified by the "brass catching" procedure.

I hunt with both. My hammer rifles have extractors and hammer-less have ejectors. Neither one concerns me. I like them both.

If you really want both extractor and ejector capability the Heym doubles have an option for selector on the forend. Just slide the recessed button to select. I have the selector on my Heym 88B double riles but did not order it on my 89B. Don't really see a need for it.

I like ejectors on doubles and have seen no need to change them. Same as my bolt action magazine Rifles have ejectors and see no press about how bad they are.....

I liked the Ejector on my 450/400. Ruger No.1 and had the safety customized so it would work properly.

I guess at worst if an Ejector spring fails you still have an extractor, but I have no experience of this.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I see you have missed my point; which is, you are taking time to "catch brass"; which hand doesn't matter. I did't say that you did not know how to operate your rifles.
What matters is, any advantage that ejectors might have over plain extractors is nullified by the "brass catching" procedure.

It really boils down to how you train with the rifle.

If you're in the habit of catching the brass from ejectors, you aren't getting the benefit of having them installed in your rifle and will likely do the same under field conditions, especially if under pressure.

By the same token, if you have extractors, and don't instinctively roll and flip the rifle upon firing and breaking the action open in order to dump the brass, you aren't training to use the extractor gun properly either.

I find one is as good as the other ... extractors or ejectors. Your training methodology for emptying and reloading the rifle is much more important.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I see you have missed my point; which is, you are taking time to "catch brass"; which hand doesn't matter. I did't say that you did not know how to operate your rifles.
What matters is, any advantage that ejectors might have over plain extractors is nullified by the "brass catching" procedure.

It really boils down to how you train with the rifle.

If you're in the habit of catching the brass from ejectors, you aren't getting the benefit of having them installed in your rifle and will likely do the same under field conditions, especially if under pressure.

By the same token, if you have extractors, and don't instinctively roll and flip the rifle upon firing and breaking the action open in order to dump the brass, you aren't training to use the extractor gun properly either.

I find one is as good as the other ... extractors or ejectors. Your training methodology for emptying and reloading the rifle is much more important.

Right on Todd! Training is the key, and the only key to being able to instinctively get off more than two shots from a double rifle quickly regardless which system you have! I have doubles with both ejectors, and/or extractors and have no problem getting off the third and fourth shots very quickly, and more importantly, bullets placed in the right place on the target.
Muscle memory is the key!
…………………………………………………………………..

Train/practice like you hunt in the field WITH the gun(s) you will be using...it doesn't really matter, ejector/extractor, is used.

I can feel the cases flipping out of my extractor guns and flying away when I roll/flip them over smartly/rightly and I can also feel the ejector popping the cases over my right shoulder up and away...definitely NOT the first few times with a new gun but over time I feel when things are going right and when they aren't.

Keep the booze and bullshit to a minimum and leave your yappy offspring home...Make time for that practice and family gatherings for another time. Disruptions can really screw up timing practice. How many of you party hardy BEFORE THE GAME when you are trying to stomp your nemesis at his own game.

If you are worried about expensive OR cheap brass you might end up with a nasty critter chewing on your hide...or dead....several cops were killed in gun fights in the "old days" because in the old days you were trained/TOLD to drop your brass in the brass bucket and keep things clean so when the shi* was happening those dead ones were killed when looking around for the "brass bucket". Many cop shops also neglected to train their officers to dump their brass AWAY from their feet to keep from stepping on it and slipping. A few things have changed for the better...at least a clip is only one item to account for rather than 6 or a dozen, but even clips have their problem areas.

Muscle memory and action memory can get you hurt in many ways, but it can save your bacon if done right and often...ANd CORRECTLY.


Think about it.


Forget the empties, get them out of the gun, out of the way, and out of your mind and live ones up the spout the quickest way you can...that way you may survive an encounter of the lasting kind.

Good Hunting

The other advantage with ejectors on a double rifle or shotgun that I haven't seen mentioned is selective nature of ejectors where if you only fire one barrel and break open to reload, only the fired empty is ejected irrespective whether you have deliberately shot the 'other' barrel first. More so with a shotgun where you may choose to shoot your fuller choked barrel at a longer range bird.
With extractors only, you have to remember which empty shell to pull as apart from the indented primer it is not readily apparent which is the fired case or the unfired cartridge as both are lifted from the chambers on opening the gun. Likewise with extractors you can't use the roll and tilt method of emptying the chambers when wanting to reload in a hurry if you have only fire one barrel. At least with ejectors this is all taken care of for you.

As many have said, it is when the sh..t hits the fan that things often go south and it doesn't just have to be on dangerous game either. Many of us will have surely seen some stuff ups when game bird hunting when the action gets fast and furious and most will have shot their shotguns on game or target far more than any hunter shoots his rifles on dangerous game.

The British 455 Webley battle revolver was a beauty in that it ejected the empties from the cylinder when the top break revolver was opened leaving the unfired cartridges in the chamber. This feature must have been a great help when under duress in battle without having to pull or tip the empties out before reloading the whole cylinder again.

I have 10 double shotguns with one or the other.

The ejector ones are faster to reload by far.

My one double rifle has extractors I would have preferred it to have ejectors.

quote:

The other advantage with ejectors on a double rifle or shotgun that I haven't seen mentioned is selective nature of ejectors where if you only fire one barrel and break open to reload, only the fired empty is ejected irrespective whether you have deliberately shot the 'other' barrel first.

Often I have time to eject and reload one barrel and makes for three quick shots if needed.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I have 10 double shotguns with one or the other.

The ejector ones are faster to reload by far.

My one double rifle has extractors I would have preferred it to have ejectors.

Rifle is different from shotgun due to the ease of the brass cases falling out vs having to pluck out the plastic or paper hulls. With a Double Rifle, the ejectors ARE quicker ... but NOT by far.

You can search for my video of it here on AR if you're interested. If I remember correctly, the extractors were about 1 second slower ... maybe a bit less.


Eagle, with extractors in a double rifle, it's not the same as shooting birds or clays with a shotgun where you have to remember which barrel was fired first (ie choosing the appropriate choke). 99.9% of the time you will shoot the same barrel first every time, whether you do it correctly by shooting the front trigger first, or like Cal where he shoots the rear trigger first.

The only time where your scenario would come into play is the old game of putting a soft in one barrel and a solid in the other for quick selection. I've done that a few times in elephant country while after buffalo but have never had to shoot the left barrel first (solid) to stop a charge. Came close one time with the 9.3 in hand walking into a lion bait when we passed by a one eyed cow elephant that we didn't see until we were too close. She came at us trumpeting and kicking dirt but backed down with a little shouting. Interestingly enough though, that particular time I had two CEB Safari Raptors in the tubes as we were focused on what may be on the bait up ahead so I would have fired the front trigger anyway. Just bringing a dose of reality into the discussion as talking about scenarios vs experience is often different. Going into the thick stuff for elephant, both are loaded with solids. Going into the thick stuff for buffalo, both are loaded with a TSX or CEB Safari Raptor. When I took my lion with a double, both were loaded with CEB Safari Raptors. So I've never had to think about which barrel was fired when reloading a single barrel.



Andrew, better yet, fire both barrels, reload both quickly and you'll have 4 quick shots!!! 1 better than 3!!!! Video of that posted here on AR as well!

Nash Buckingham was on a bird hunt with a distinguished Colonel who had missed every shot. At the end of the day when he missed a golden double, the Colonel dropped his head as he broke the shotgun open and the shells jumped out over his arm. A youngster who was assisting the hunt walked up to him and said “Colonel, your gun throws those shells further than any other I’ve ever seen”

I like ejectors, I like the sound they make.

Gentlemen, there is one other thing that will hinder a quick re-load of a double rifle, and that is where the reload rounds are carried. If all rounds are carried in a ammo-belt with solids on one side and softs on the other before going into the weeds with a Buffalo or elephant the belt should be turned so the proper bullet will be in front. this way when one reaches for the re-loads the shooter doesn't grab the wrong bullet type.

I use an ammo belt for plenty of ammo of both types are available. However I carry two rounds in a fixture on the back of my right hand (trigger hand) with two of the proper bullet cartridges with the rims "UP" so I can keep my eyes on the target while plucking the two rounds off the back of my trigger hand for a very quick re-load. This places my trigger hand in constant proper placement to be able to close and fire two more without taking my eyes off the target. Rather than the two re-loads being two or three feet from the chambers, they are within six inches of the chambers.


There are many things that can be done to facilitate a fast re-loading of a double rifle, to stay in the fight, and with a little experimenting the shooter can come up with what works best for him/her.
As I have said many times here what ever works best for the individual, is the best system. But what ever works best and quickest for one may not be best for everyone. However once the fastest way is found for "YOU", the next thing is make sure the bullets go where you intended. If they don't hit the right spot on the target animal all that speed is simply wasted and may send you home in a box!

…………………………………………………………...

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
If you had the opportunity to choose, would you prefer your .500 NE DR with extractors only, or a system you could convert to ejector in about two minutes using only a screwdriver?

I choose a system I can convert