Hi all,

I have just received my Heym 88B Safari in .470 NE three weeks ago. I have a master stock maker at Rosenthal, Windhoek, Namibia measured my fitting and have a custom stock made by Outschar, Ferlach, in Germany. I have shot the rifle about 35 rounds already and it did kick the hell out of me. The rifle weight 9.7 lbs (4.41 kg). While my Winchester 500 MDM with AI strait stock weights at 8.9 lbs (4.05 kg) and Mauser M03 PH with strait fiberglass stock .458 Lott weights at 8.8 lbs (4.0 kg), both rifles kick considerably less. All three rifles use same 500 grains bullet in weight (all factory load), I can shoot these two rifles with strait stock all day with pleasure, whereas I can shoot Heym only eight to ten rounds, biting my teeth. Is it possible to have a DR build and regulate with strait stock? I will install a Red Dot on the rifle.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Of course it is if the maker will do it; I just ordered a Chapuis and they will make the stock straighter than their standard extreme drop at the heel. Look at the Krieghoff big 5; it has a very straight stock. You are right that too much drop at the heel makes the recoil feel much harder, most of which comes from the comb smacking you in the face like a right from George Forman.

Moderation is the secret to success on stocking big bore guns..A straight stock brings the recoil straight back, and too much drop brings the barrels up and the comb into the cheek..

So if one stocks your double to fit your built and gives you a proper sight picture then in all liklyhood it will bring some of the recoil back and some up...You still have to be able to get down on the comb enough to see the sights comfortably, if you have crush your cheek down to see those sights the your going to get whacked with the comb even on a straight stock, and it will point like a club...The English knew this a couple of hundred years ago.

I always fit the stock to the person so that most can point shoot at say 25 yards, that takes some drop anyway you cut it, but I add a bit of cast off and that solves the problem about as well as anything. A persons built will tell a stocker the story. Most of all a DGR should be pointable at short range and again that will take some drop. You can have drop without getting smaked in the face and still get a proper sight picture, but you have to lower the comb some to off set it, again too much drop makes the rifle point to the heavens, so again moderation and fit is the secret.

Thank you all for your kind comments and recommendations.

Dpcd and Atkinson both have very points. Krieghoff big 5 has a very straight stock looks very promising to me as it is between a strait comp stock and traditional drop comp stock.

I do not think it is the drop in the stock that is causing you issues.First of all you did not describe exactly what it is that is causing you discomfort.Is part of the rifle or your hand hitting your face? IMO,the rear of the stock should be made such that the cheekpiece or part of the stock that is in contact with your face when you shoulder the rifle, be away from the action and grip and closer to the butt.If the cheek falls forward and too close to the grip and does not weld onto the flat side of the stock,your face may take a hit from your hand gripping the grip or just be too close to the rising part of the rifle.In short,your face needs to be closer to the butt of the stock than the grip and ideally have a flat surface that it can weld itself onto.A dropping stock make cause for less recoil,IMO.Are you sure you have the correct LOP and that there were no errors made in measuring you for fit?

I have Heym original stock cut to my LOP and altered at the grip for cast off and palm swell to my measurement. Both stocks fit me very well and shoulder good. I think the major problem is the recoil pad on the custome stock as it has a 3/4" rubber pad on and it is a bit hard. Stock's butt thumbed me very hard at the shoulder every times I pulled the trigers, and it was painful. No problem with grip, face, cheek nor grip, except that my middle finger hit rear part of trigger guard if I don't hold the grip firmly. I have just installed Limsaver grid to fit magnum 1.5" on Heym stock and went shooting this morning. I don't feel any pain anymore, but accuracy was dropped. I think the recoil pad was too thick and too soft. Muzzle rise was too high for my liking though. Perhaps if a new stock with less drop at heel would be better?

Sorry, forgot to mention that felt recoil from this DR is still twice as much to felt recoil on M03 .458 Lott with strait stock though. This is the reason why I would like to try strait stock on DR.

Sorry, forgot to mention that felt recoil from this DR is still twice as much to felt recoil on a lighter M03 .458 Lott with strait stock though. This is the reason why I would like to try strait stock on DR.

If it is correct that your Lott causes less felt recoil I would suspect that the weight on your Heym is not distributed properly throughout the rifle or the rifle is not well designed.

Do you mean that you want a straight stock like this:

Stan - how old is your rifle? PM me the serial number if you like, or you can post the proof house date code. That's two letters between A and J

The first question is surface area of the recoil pad.

Heym first made the 88B "Safari" in the early 80's, and the stocks have changed a few times since then (for the better) specifically in the amount of surface area in the recoil pad.

Secondly is the LOP. Too long is not so bad, too short hurts.

Cast in a typical stock is less than 3/8 at toe and usually closer to 1/4". The heel has less yet. Given the same dimensions, I can't distinguish the difference in recoil between a stock with no cast and a stock with cast. The difference for me is that I have to move my head on a straight stock to see the sights correctly.

A palm swell from HEYM is either on an old stock or custom ordered.

Husky,

Strait comp stock, same drop at comp and heel.

Chris,

I sent PM to you yesterday.

Serial # is DE 82584. Both original Heym stock and custom stock has same drop at comp and heel, but the custom stock is one cm higher at the butt than Heym's butt, so it has more surface area there. I think it is too high for me as I am 5' 6" tall and weight 126 lbs with 13.75" LOP.

Cast off and palm swell correction were made to suite my sighting when shoulder.

Husky, no; your stock has quite a lot of drop at the heel; he means straight as in no drop from comb to heel as measured from the line of bore or line of sights. There is a reason they quit making bolt action stocks with 1.5 inches of drop at the heel, in the 50s and 1960s, and went to the sloped cheekpiece and straighter stock of the monte carlo persuasion. To keep the rifle in more of a straight line recoil direction and to keep the stock off your face when it does recoil. Double rifles are still made, mostly, to the pattern established in the 19th century and it is not a good pattern as far as recoil distribution is concerned. They can be made straight and still give good "pointability". If you can't see the sights, then the entire top from comb to heel can be lowered or higher sights can be installed. Or a scope will solve it too. I consider stocks with extreme drop at the heel, on a heavy recoiling rifle, mistakes and I have several of them as examples. That is why I ordered my new Chapuis to have only 1/4 inch of difference between the comb and heel and it makes a world of difference.

Sorry, forgot again. I am getting old I guess.

I have two sets of barrel, .375 H&H and .470 NE. With 375, the rifle is barrel heavy, while with .470 balance is superb.

The serial number tells me that it is an early rifle with the smaller stock (less surface area to absorb recoil.)

The 375 barrels will be a bit heavier because of the larger frame size. The first 5" or 6" will be the same contour as the 470, from there they will be tapered proportionally. See photo below. This is a set of 500s with a set of 375 on the same frame.



If you want the rifle restocked (stocked-to-fit with specific dimensions,) we would do that for you at our cost (no markup.)

That sound fair?

PM me for details.

I agree with Chris on the need for a large stock to absorb recoil and give you plenty of surface to weld your cheek to(and shoulder).Both a large stock made from quality wood and made to fit right will deal with recoil.
Stan,check to see if your trigger is positioned all the way to the end of your trigger guard and not in the middle.If it is anywhere near the middle this will cause the finger next to the trigger finger to hit against the rear of the trigger guard under recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by Stan-Elephant Trail:
Hi all,

I have just received my Heym 88B Safari in .470 NE three weeks ago. I have a master stock maker at Rosenthal, Windhoek, Namibia measured my fitting and have a custom stock made by Outschar, Ferlach, in Germany.

If you have had a custom fitted stock made and it it still kicking the crap out of you, I would seriously reconsider the quality of the fitting that you got.

Another possibility would be the ferlach stock wasn't made to the correct dimensions...

Based on the other guns you use it is should be well within you recoil tolerance. So the fitting measurements; castoff, LOP, drop at comb, toe in/out, etc. would be where I would start to question things...

But, new-guy's offer is a steal, and is very much worth considering. To be safe I would inquire if Heym has a rep or someone they have worked with relatively local that can take a new stock fitting for you.


.

Heym's offer to restock the rifle with more surface area on the butt sounds very fair to me. That combined with the newer recoil absorbing buttpad materials will help alot. You may also want to reconsider the stock dimensions. Let's start with the length of pull. Often the big bores will use a LOP that is slightly longer than the shooter's normal LOP. This allows the shooter's shoulder to be fully extended rearward while the shooter "stock crawls" his face foreward to a firm cheek-weld with the comb of the stock. Thus braced the position of the rifle remains constant realitive to the shooter's body during recoil and the entire braced body "rolls with the punch". If the LOP is too short the recoil initialy slams the shooter's shoulder to the rear while his face flys foreward with often painfull results. Better to be "braced and rolled Than slamed and face planted". ....Next, the drop at the heel and the comb of the buttstock. These are entirely dependent on the physical characteristics of the individual shooter. On a properly fitted rifle the drop at the heel and the comb are adjusted so that the shooter has a firm cheek-weld with the comb while looking straight down the sites and the drop at the heel has positioned the buttpad for full contact with the shooter's shoulder. Too little drop and you lose contact area with the shoulder, too much drop and you will increase the upward rotation of the rifle during recoil. ...Note that all of these dimensions must be used in conjunction with the proper "pitch" across the butt of the stock. Simply put "pitch" is the angle formed across the heel and toe of the stock realative to the bore line and it controls the surface area of the buttpad that makes full contact with the shooter's shoulder. Pitch also plays a part in positioning the shooters eye to see straight down the sites. When mounted a perfectly pitched rifle the boreline of the rifle will be parallel to the ground while the buttpad makes full contact with the shoulder. On a perfectly fitted rifle everything falls into place at once with no conscious effort on the shooter's part. ....I'll not get into "cast off or cast on" here other to say that cast off causes the rifle to rotate into the face slightly on recoil and cast on causes the rifle to rotate slightly away from the face during recoil. (Not heresy, simple geometry. Bend a short piece of wire slightly and then push the front part backwards and upwards. Which way does the comb rotate?) Cast off is more frequently used on big bore DGR rifles as it allows slightly faster target aquisition. As my friend D'Arcy once told me "His clients expect the big bores to kick", but the "felt recoil" of his rifles is much less than most because he takes the time to properly fit each rifle to the client. ...Let me know the results....Dave

Gents,

I love this site! Lots of help, knowledge recommendations and suggestions, sincerely.

The custom stock's butt is 5/8" higher and 1/8" thicker than Heym's stock. Surface area of the recoil area should not be a problem. In fact I think it is too big for me as I have a small built. With .470 barrel, the rifle shoulder and pointed very well. As many of you have suggested, I will add a 1/4" spacer to lengthen LOP. To have only 1/4 inch of difference between the comb and heel is a very good idea as dcpd has mentioned.

Chris,

Your kind offer for a new stock at cost is very generous. I am sure every one agree with me. I do highly appreciated this. May I take it a step or two further though? I will PM you.

Stan

In your post above you say you have 13.75" LOP on your 470NE.

Out of interest, what is the LOP of your two bolt rifles that have less felt recoil?

Rhodes

13.5"

Maybe it just boils down to the fact that a scoped rifle allows the stock to be ~1.5" closer to the bore centreline than an open sighted rifle. Allowing a higher pivot point against the shoulder and less tip up?

Just an uneducated guess?

Rhodes

I know that this may sound strange but I would also look at how the chambers are made and the free space between the rifling and the throat of the chamber.Could it be that there is more of an abrupt burning of the powder compared to a slow burn?
I noticed recently the difference in felt recoil among loads while shooting my Baikal 45-70 and using low charges or trapdoor charges that do not fill up the case.

Rodes,

I was shooting M03 458 Lott with open sight and 500 MDM with RMR red dot.

Shoot away,

Sorry, no knowledge in this area at all. My department is point and pull.

Stan, From my experience I believe a 470 double at 9.7lbs is just too light and transfers too much recoil to your shoulder. I took mine from 9.5lbs to 10.5lbs and it made a world of difference in felt recoil. I suggest you add a little weight to yours and try it.

Some custom stockers try to stock a double the same as a bolt action..It won't work very well if that is done and probably because the recoil of the big doubles comes up and makes a big twist and in the really big bores will turn the gun over and out of the hand if not held tightly...IMO that is where cast off seems to help the most for whatever reason! and I have never asked why, but it does, so the whys and wherefores are neither here nor there with me.

I'm not overly bothered by recoil to the shoulder and my guns don't hit my cheek, but I do get that knuckle bump from time to time with all of them, and that develops a flinch pronto, damn it hurts!..Long grips or short grips still get me but I have had a fairly recent trigger finger and hand injury and its even worse than ever. It has made me drop down to the 9.3s and 375s for now, and I can get by with my 404 loaded down to 2150 or so.
I suppose I need to order some rubber bumpers for my trigger guards.

Adding weight to a big bore is the best way to tame it but be sure and add equal amounts of weight to the butt and forend, lead works well and the recoil billets work even better and they do come in long small sizes that work on skinny forends if you careful.

quote:

Originally posted by 2kuduhunter:
Stan, From my experience I believe a 470 double at 9.7lbs is just too light and transfers too much recoil to your shoulder. I took mine from 9.5lbs to 10.5lbs and it made a world of difference in felt recoil. I suggest you add a little weight to yours and try it.

My 470NE double weighs in at 11.3 pounds and it will still get your attention, but it isn't bad and it isn't too heavy to carry all day!

I have no idea how anyone could want a straight stock on a big bore double rifle, but the pistol grip should be more open than a bolt rifle though!

......................................................................

Gents,

I have added a spacer and changed to a 1" Liambsaver grains to fit recoil pad. LOP is now 14 1/4". I am very happy to report that the beast is now tamed. The gun shoulders and points better than before. I can shoot more than twenty rounds in a session with pleasure now.

Thanks everyone for your help and suggestion.