The Rigby thread has got me dreaming, the only part of the process I can afford. But I need some help with my fantasy, is there any advantage to a 470 now that the 450 has been re-invented?

No, the advanteges lay with the 450NE 3 1/4". Slimmer case, better ballistics (comparing original 470 ballistics, 500's at about 2025fps from real rifles, not the "new" version with 500's at 2150fps from real rifles.) Huge selection of .458" bullets running from top of the line to cheap for practice, including cast bullets.

Not big advantages, but there.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
No, the advanteges lay with the 450NE 3 1/4". Slimmer case, better ballistics (comparing original 470 ballistics, 500's at about 2025fps from real rifles, not the "new" version with 500's at 2150fps from real rifles.) Huge selection of .458" bullets running from top of the line to cheap for practice, including cast bullets.JPK

Ditto! Build a trimmer gun with the 450, and look at all the .458 bullets to play with!!!

Ed

I'll add reloading without fillers to the list of 450NE 3 1/4" advantages.

JPK

With the proper powders you don't need fillers in the 470. Also you are more likely to find extra ammo available for the 470 in Africa. Hell, your PH may be carrying one. Your less likely to find 450 ammo in Africa. Also the 470 has a lower chamber pressure.

465H&H

I have a 470 and a 500/450. I like the selection of .458 bullets for the 450s.

If I was to order a new built rifle I'd order the 450 3 1/4.

If I was shopping for a used 450 I'd be happy with the 500/450, 450 3 1/4 or 450 No2. The 500/450 and 450 No2 have an advantage with lower pressures. The 450 can be made to fit in a trimmer action.

My 500/450 shoots the Woodleigh 480 gr softs and the Hornady 350gr RN to the same POI with the same powder charge. With 2 grs less powder it shoots the Woodleigh 480 gr solids to the same POI.

I had a nice 500/465 before I found the 500/450. Once I was certain the 500/450 was a keeper I sold the 465. Although I do miss it from time to time!

quote:

Build a trimmer gun with the 450,

Ha. When have you seen a trimmer 450 than a 470?

I prefer a 450 to a 470.

Well I have a 470 now so I prefer it,bullets are no problem,plinkers or whatever,but I bet I would also like a 450 whenever I do get one

450 is the way to go, as stated above no filler with R-15, bullets cost less and are always going to be easier to find.

But Ron Thomson wrote that he thought a 470 was much more effective than a 458 WM (vis a vis a 450 NE). What he was smoking to allow himself to come up with that conclusion, I don't know.

So you all better pitch the 450's, my way of course.

The 450 is a GREAT............. Ladies gun.

LOL...PAH

quote:

Originally posted by PAHunter:
The 450 is a GREAT............. Ladies gun.

LOL...PAH

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
But Ron Thomson wrote that he thought a 470 was much more effective than a 458 WM (vis a vis a 450 NE). What he was smoking to allow himself to come up with that conclusion, I don't know.

So you all better pitch the 450's, my way of course.

Maybe because he was shooting the factory Winchester 500gr 458wm ammo circa 1975, at ~2000-2050fps, with the 470 historic load running 500's at ~2025fps? More area, same energy. The 450 3 1/4" runs ~2100-2150fps in real rifles btw.

On the trimmer 450's - you posted a compliment on a nice, trim, vintage 450 3 1/4" going to Africa again on the African Hunting forum. Ian Nychens' rifle? Less than 10lbs, iirc.

Even your father, Pondoro Himself, acknowledged the trimmer rifles possible and in existence.

JPK

quote:

at ~2000-2050fps

or even ~1900-1950fps.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
But Ron Thomson wrote that he thought a 470 was much more effective than a 458 WM (vis a vis a 450 NE). What he was smoking to allow himself to come up with that conclusion, I don't know.

So you all better pitch the 450's, my way of course.

Maybe because he was shooting the factory Winchester 500gr 458wm ammo circa 1975, at ~2000-2050fps, with the 470 historic load running 500's at ~2025fps? More area, same energy. The 450 3 1/4" runs ~2100-2150fps in real rifles btw.

On the trimmer 450's - you posted a compliment on a nice, trim, vintage 450 3 1/4" going to Africa again on the African Hunting forum. Ian Nychens' rifle? Less than 10lbs, iirc.

Even your father, Pondoro Himself, acknowledged the trimmer rifles possible and in existence.

JPK

Yeah, I was going to go into all that but was too lazy. I think Thomson was complaining about some of the 458 WM bullets bouncing off elephants!

Coincidentally, I was having some correspondence recently with a guy about a lightweight DR:

"Champlins had a 475 NE (??, I forget) one time that weighed less than 9 lbs. It was regulated using the light loads and 400 (?) gr. bullets. JJ down there swore that it would shoot off face quick if I tried shooting heavy NE loads. Don't know if that would have been true, whether he had seen such in the past, or he was just guessing."

I'm guessing that this was another "tiger" rifle, shooting the light bullets.

Would have been interesting to see if it stood up to heavy loads. Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

at ~2000-2050fps

or even ~1900-1950fps.

Richard Harland, who killed maybe 5,000 elephants with the 458wm, chrono'd the Winchester ammo he used and it ran 2050fps in his Manlicher. Or so he reports in one of his books.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
But Ron Thomson wrote that he thought a 470 was much more effective than a 458 WM (vis a vis a 450 NE). What he was smoking to allow himself to come up with that conclusion, I don't know.

So you all better pitch the 450's, my way of course.

Maybe because he was shooting the factory Winchester 500gr 458wm ammo circa 1975, at ~2000-2050fps, with the 470 historic load running 500's at ~2025fps? More area, same energy. The 450 3 1/4" runs ~2100-2150fps in real rifles btw.

On the trimmer 450's - you posted a compliment on a nice, trim, vintage 450 3 1/4" going to Africa again on the African Hunting forum. Ian Nychens' rifle? Less than 10lbs, iirc.

Even your father, Pondoro Himself, acknowledged the trimmer rifles possible and in existence.

JPK

Yeah, I was going to go into all that but was too lazy. I think Thomson was complaining about some of the 458 WM bullets bouncing off elephants!

Coincidentally, I was having some correspondence recently with a guy about a lightweight DR:

"Champlins had a 475 NE (??, I forget) one time that weighed less than 9 lbs. It was regulated using the light loads and 400 (?) gr. bullets. JJ down there swore that it would shoot off face quick if I tried shooting heavy NE loads. Don't know if that would have been true, whether he had seen such in the past, or he was just guessing."

I'm guessing that this was another "tiger" rifle, shooting the light bullets.

Would have been interesting to see if it stood up to heavy loads. Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too.

Will,

So it shoots off face in, say, 300 rounds. That is a lot of elephants.

Putting a rifle back on face is cheap too.

The problem with the 475 as I see it is it shoots a 480gr bullet.

I question the shooting off face issue generally, and wonder why it happens to some rifles and not others. I can't see the whole issue clearly. For example, my Thys weighs 10.5lbs, shoots 500 grainers at 2145fps, but at high pressure. It has a third fastener, the hidden style, but still, if there was a candidate for shooting off face it would seem to be my rifle, amoungst other 458wm's. Ive shot 800 rounds or so through mine and it only got better for the first 500. No change since then and it is bank vault tight. I have no idea how many rounds the previous owner(s?) shot, but it wasn't many.

I do think how well a rifle is made and how well it is fitted has a lot to do with how fast it will shoot off face, if ever.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
But Ron Thomson wrote that he thought a 470 was much more effective than a 458 WM (vis a vis a 450 NE). What he was smoking to allow himself to come up with that conclusion, I don't know.

So you all better pitch the 450's, my way of course.

Maybe because he was shooting the factory Winchester 500gr 458wm ammo circa 1975, at ~2000-2050fps, with the 470 historic load running 500's at ~2025fps? More area, same energy. The 450 3 1/4" runs ~2100-2150fps in real rifles btw.

On the trimmer 450's - you posted a compliment on a nice, trim, vintage 450 3 1/4" going to Africa again on the African Hunting forum. Ian Nychens' rifle? Less than 10lbs, iirc.

Even your father, Pondoro Himself, acknowledged the trimmer rifles possible and in existence.

JPK

Yeah, I was going to go into all that but was too lazy. I think Thomson was complaining about some of the 458 WM bullets bouncing off elephants!

Coincidentally, I was having some correspondence recently with a guy about a lightweight DR:

"Champlins had a 475 NE (??, I forget) one time that weighed less than 9 lbs. It was regulated using the light loads and 400 (?) gr. bullets. JJ down there swore that it would shoot off face quick if I tried shooting heavy NE loads. Don't know if that would have been true, whether he had seen such in the past, or he was just guessing."

I'm guessing that this was another "tiger" rifle, shooting the light bullets.

Would have been interesting to see if it stood up to heavy loads. Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too.

Will,

So it shoots off face in, say, 300 rounds. That is a lot of elephants.

Putting a rifle back on face is cheap too.

The problem with the 475 as I see it is it shoots a 480gr bullet.

I question the shooting off face issue generally, and wonder why it happens to some rifles and not others. I can't see the whole issue clearly. For example, my Thys weighs 10.5lbs, shoots 500 grainers at 2145fps, but at high pressure. It has a third fastener, the hidden style, but still, if there was a candidate for shooting off face it would seem to be my rifle, amoungst other 458wm's. Ive shot 800 rounds or so through mine and it only got better for the first 500. No change since then and it is bank vault tight. I have no idea how many rounds the previous owner(s?) shot, but it wasn't many.

I do think how well a rifle is made and how well it is fitted has a lot to do with how fast it will shoot off face, if ever.

JPK

JPK,

I'm confused. you say the 475 is a problem since it shoots 480 grain bullets, yet you use 450 grainers in your 458!

465H&H

The .458" 450gr solids are flat points with SD = .305. Velocity is 2220fps.

The 475NE 480gr bullets are .483" round noses with SD = .294. Velocity from 24-26" barrels is about 2100-2150fps

That is why I am comfortable using the .458" 450gr FN's at 2220fps and wouldn't be using the 475NE's 480gr round noses at about 100fps less.

JPK

JPK,

You could just pretend it was a 475 #2 Jeffery and shoot 500 gr. bullets.

In reality if you could find somebody with a lathe you could make any bullet weights your heart desired.

Just shoot those lightweight doubles until you can see your toes between the barrels and receiver, and then get it fixed!

JPK

My 465 uses 480 grain bullets at 2,150 fps from my rifle. There are a bunch of dead elephants due to that combination. I really don't think there is enough difference between a 480 grain .468, .483 or a 500 grain .458 bullet even in RN form for anyone to be able to see a difference on elephants. Remember John Taylor, Clem Coetzee, Roger Whitall and Jeff Rahn amongst others all preferred the 465 using mostly Kynoch ammo that only went around 2,050 fps out of their doubles for following up wounded DG.

465H&H

Your 480gr solids run SD of .313. Nominal 465NE ballistics are 2150fps from 28" barrels.

475NE bullets are .483" and SD .294, ballistics are similar.

I believe that stepping down from SD .313 480 grainers at ~2100-2150 to the lesser SD begins to play with marginal, especially when the bullet is a round nose.

JPK

JPK,

While I don't agree here, and as you know that is a rarity between us, I really don't think that a difference of .020 in SD is all that significant but then again you are comfortable with a drop of 50 grains in bullet weight in the 458 Win from 500 to 450 grains while I am not, so were even. Well good buddy, with us having these differences, which are really diffences in comfort levels, we now have something to talk about.

465H&H

Bill, absolutely positively a 450 3 1/4 inch.. With the 458 bulllets you can choose your loadings and tweek them for your gun... Also you can get brass at an unbelievable price.. Compared with the 470 brass or like my 450#2 brass $100 for 20...


Mike

Ballistics is a tricky topic but the 450 is, all else being equal, is necessarily going to be at a higher pressure than the 450 #2.

There has to be a given pressure to get a bullet going a specified speed when it leaves the barrel. Depending on the vburning rate of the powder I can see the situation where the peak pressure in a 450 #2 would be less than a 450 because of its greater case volume, though the average pressure that the bullet sees has to be the same to get the same velocity.

I don't know whether that is a correct analysis but may be the case. When they report pressures for different loads, 450's are always higher than the 450 #2, so maybe the analysis is correct.

If you still think that 450 #2 is not the way to go, you can give it to me!

Pressure smessure. Not a lot of difference - and nothing like my rifle, which ain't havin' problems.

Was it a factor in 1906? Ya, maybe, along with wound brass cases...

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Pressure smessure. Not a lot of difference - and nothing like my rifle, which ain't havin' problems.

Was it a factor in 1906? Ya, maybe, along with wound brass cases...

JPK

Yeesh, you 458 WM HIGH PRESSURE guys are sooooo sensitive.

It would be difficult for me to believe most modern doubles could be made slimmer in a 450 3.25 than a 470. My Heym 470 is pretty slim to begin with. I realize most vintage rifles were significantly larger in the frame than my rifle.
Modern domestic 470 ammo from Federal and Hornady meet or exceed 2150 FPS in my rifle (24" barrel). I rather like that velocity better than vintage figure at 2050. My rifle regulates at 6 oclock about 3' low with these offerings however that is nothing that cannot be addressed by sending the gun to NECG and having a shortened front post added.
That is my plan and I am sticking too it. I would like to have a 450 X 3.25 simply from a historic perspective. Neat round!

EZ

Will,

Not being sensative, quite the opposite, it is an ovrblown issue.

Pressure:
The board's beloved 450/400 3/14" - 16.5 tons
The boards worshipped and venerated 400 Jeffery 3" vesion - 16 tons
450NE 3 1/4" - 17 tons
470NE - 14 tons

Pondoro Himself liked the idea of a pair of rifles in 425WR, one a bolt, one a double. Pressure - 18.5 tons

BTW, Kynoch doesn't list the 458wm, but they do list the 458 Lott, with 480gr bullets at 2299fps. Pressure - 18.5 tons.

JPK

450 No2:

80gr Cordite 480gr bullet 28" barrel
2175 fps. 13 tons.

There is certainly some advantage coupled with the 470NE, but not one a cape buffalo would notice!
I have owned and hunted with both, and I persoally prefere the 450NE 3 1/4" double rifle over the 470NE even in the same size/weight rifle! The 450NE 3 1/4" double set the bar hight for big game in Africa hunting. Not untill you get to the 500NE will you see a measurable advantage ballisticly. IOW, anything the 470NE will do the properly loaded 450NE 3 1/4" double will do as well!

I have a 470NE double right now that is as good as any 470NE double, and I'd rather have an equally appointed double rifle chambered for the 450NE 3 1/4"!

When you get down to the nut cuttin,anything from 450/400NE to 470NE class rifles take a back seat to the 500NE for a stopping rifle, but the others, especially the 450NE 3/1/4", and the 450/400NE 3"are far more versatile for all-around use. If you are an exclusive elephant hunter to the exclusion of all else, then by-pass them all and go strait to the 500NE 3" double rifle and never look back!

I'm sure there will be arguments made for every one of the cartridges listed here, over the others, but all that proves is, your personal opinion, and the choice is YOUR's

Which ever floats your canoe is the one you should paddle!

I prefer the .450 to the .470. In my case a No. 2.

.458 bullets.

Not as common. Yet anyway.

More 'vintage'.

I wish the 450 #2 NE had been the cartridge FEDERAL first produced

ammo for; and that IT had "taken off" instead of the 470.

If I had a magic wand I'd make 375 Flanged Mag, 450 #2, 600 NE and

4 bore sell retail world wide for 25 cents per loaded round.

Which one kicks more?

Typical actual ballistics of real rifle:

450NE 3 1/4" = 460grs @ ~2125fps

$70NE (vintage load) = 500grs @ ~2025fps

470NE ("new" standard load) = 500grs @ ~2125fps

Not much difference, so I'd doubt that one could distinguish unless shooting back to back the 470 or 450 vs the new 470 load. Even then the characteristics of the individual rifles might obscur any difference between the rounds or loads.

BECAUSE I BELIEVE ONE COULD EASIER GET AMMO IN AFRICA

in 470 NE I'll vote that way. If the rifle is not going into

AFRICA in it's owners life time then 450 NE shooting 450

grain or lighter bullets, and really a 9.3x74R using 286

grainers is probably enough for a 2000 pound bear.

Certainly a 375 H&H flandged magnum or a 450/400 using

either length brass is.

470 OR 450??
Ill take whichever one you give to me...