Good Day All:

After a hiatus from shooting rifles for several years, I decided today was the day to get acquainted with old friends again.

Off to the range, fifty paces out the door, with three rifles. Two doubles and a semi auto. the semi auto was a Chinese T97. The other two were my Merkel in 9.3x74R and a Baikal in 45-70.

Long story short, I could hardly keep them on the paper at 100 m. all three of them. Ugh, am I out of practice.

First up was the Merkl. I grab it out of the gun safe, knock the rust off, see my previous post, and down to the standing bench for some practice.

Not shooting to POA and bullet spread is all over the place. Remove the scope with qd mounts and go to shoot irons. Oh, that's right, I never sighted in the iron sights. Same for the Baikal.Time to change that.

Which brings me to my question. Both guns have provision for regulating one barrel to the other via jack screws.

Do I sight the guns in using iron sights first and then sighting in for the scope or visa versa?

As always, your help is greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

It's my understanding that the mass of the scope affects the regulation, so you have to decide which you want to use, scope or open sights.

Other outlooks might be to regulate it with open sights then set the scope for just one barrel; or regulate it with the scope and assume that if you have to detach it the range should be so close it won't matter if the open sights are out a bit.

Aaron Little regulated my Simson .405 DR with the Leupold scope attached. He then removed the scope and adjusted the express sights to shoot to the same point of aim. It has worked very well, putting two R&L into one inch at 50 yards.
Using the scope first gave the best precision aiming and a proven acceptable regulation to try to match with the express sights.

CR, if it was not a matter of the shots crossing or shooting apart when a scope was added (or taken off), could someone have just found where the rifle shot with open sights and then set up the scope to shoot to the same point?

If so, the problem asserted by the British and German makers does not exist, with your rifle at least.

When I asked Heym if they could mount a scope on my little double 10 years ago, they told me it would cost $2400 (Pacific Pesos, perhaps $US1800 then) plus the scope. In an age when true scope alignment is optional, I assumed this price must have covered the possibility of re-regulation being needed.

quote:

CR, if it was not a matter of the shots crossing or shooting apart when a scope was added (or taken off), could someone have just found where the rifle shot with open sights and then set up the scope to shoot to the same point?

I suppose so, BUT using the scope for final regulation allows for a better / clearer, more accurate view of the target than with bare eyes (especially eyes not 20/20) than with the more crude metal express sight.

Aaron is the gun maker, not I.
I am VERY satisfied with his results.

BTW, the reason for regulation was that I wanted to shoot ammo different from the ammo used by the original gun maker. The DR is now regulated for Hornady 300 grain ammo @2225 fps and I have many Barnes, Hornady, North Fork hand loads at 2225-2250 fps.
My 400 grain hand loads at 2050 fps also regulate well enough for big game.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
CR, if it was not a matter of the shots crossing or shooting apart when a scope was added (or taken off), could someone have just found where the rifle shot with open sights and then set up the scope to shoot to the same point?

The problem is, in most cases when a scope is added the double rifle will usually shoot wide or cross because of the weight if the scope in addition to the Hight above the bore.

quote:

If so, the problem asserted by the British and German makers does not exist, with your rifle at least.

When I asked Heym if they could mount a scope on my little double 10 years ago, they told me it would cost $2400 (Pacific Pesos, perhaps $US1800 then) plus the scope. In an age when true scope alignment is optional, I assumed this price must have covered the possibility of re-regulation being needed.

The above is correct. In most cases the rifle will have to be re-regulated if a scope is added, because of the weight, and the Hight above the bores that torque hinders the original flip upon firing either barrel. This is why the addition of a scope on a double rifle must be mounted as low as possible, and weigh as little as can be. This is why most go to one of the DOCTER type dot sights, because they are very light and will usually not effect the barrel flip as much as a heavier normal scope.
Aaron Little is one of the best double rifle regulators in the USA along with JJ Paredeau.
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Thank you gentlemen for your advise.

Scope first then irons.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

Carpadiem45-70 - glad to be of assistance and good luck with your doubles.

MacD37 - a +1 for low scope mount on double rifle. When done in conjunction with stock design, you can get a natural mount with express sights and the low scope;


Rear rib slots for Talley QD clamps avoids use of mount blocks, lowering scope.




This is the Simson .405 discussed above with Talley QD rings clamped on the rear rib.

Great little rifle, with a nice scope set-up. Aaron does some very good work.

I have several double rifles, both S/S, and O/U and combination guns including two Cape guns, and a drilling. two doubles have a scopes and irons, and the drilling with a factory claw mount scope.

I have developed Macular degeneration in my right eye, and I am right handed,and all my guns are right handers so I am in a quandary looking forward to having the install a few low powered vesicle red dot so I can shoot with both eyes open as my bad eye can still see the lighted dot while the binocular effect of both eyes will still let me shoot my right handed doubles with some degree of accuracy.


…...Bummer, and expensive as well!

MD is indeed a Bummer! Do you have meds to help?
Drugs such as lutein and zeaxanthin claim to help; 5 to 1 ratio- over the counter.

I also have right eye problems, but can shoot rifles with peep sight or scope. Up close, can even use the express sights. Always have been somewhat ambidextrous - shot this red deer left handed with Simson .405 out west of Corpus;


It was bang-flop!

But doves and skeet are a different story!
For the second time in my life, I have switched to shooting shotgun left handed. Just as accurate, but slower. Must get out soon to practice before September 1 dove opening day.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
... I am in a quandary looking forward to having the install a few low powered vesicle red dot so I can shoot with both eyes open as my bad eye can still see the lighted dot while the binocular effect of both eyes will still let me shoot my right handed doubles with some degree of accuracy...

An interesting concept, MacD, but, holding a finger out in line with a doorknob, I'm also in a quandary, trying to understand how it could work.

Do you mean you would put the dot on the target, seen as a blob, and use your left eye to decide which side of the blob should be aimed at?

With shotguns, I recall a stick poking out the left the side of the muzzle as an aiming mark; I don't suppose an alloy sight could be extended like that, with another back near the breech? A scope on an extended side mount might be even better - but goodness knows what that would do to the regulation.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
... I am in a quandary looking forward to having the install a few low powered vesicle red dot so I can shoot with both eyes open as my bad eye can still see the lighted dot while the binocular effect of both eyes will still let me shoot my right handed doubles with some degree of accuracy...

An interesting concept, MacD, but, holding a finger out in line with a doorknob, I'm also in a quandary, trying to understand how it could work.

Do you mean you would put the dot on the target, seen as a blob, and use your left eye to decide which side of the blob should be aimed at?

Sambarman, The human eye will automatically focus on the same target as long as both eyes are open, as long as a person doesn't have a cross eye problem. So, with the left eye pointing to an animal the right eye will still merge with the left eye's when distance is focused on the spot you want the bullet to hit.

This is known as the binocular effect. In my case my right eye still can see the animal and the red dot in the sight, and when both eyes are concentrating on the targets bullet placement, the shooter's eyes see both the target and the red dot seemingly placed on the target.
Certainly it take some practice to automatically open both eyes when one is used to aiming with only one eye, but it works!

I hope this is at least as clear as Mississippi mud, and I hope you don't need to use this to continue your hunting, but maybe it will help someone else who does have MY problem, and love hunting with double rifles!

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MacD37,
To close out our chat about low scope mounting, here is a pic of the Talley peep sight locked onto the rear QD groove for the Talley QD scope rings.


The view for the peep is directly through the standing leaf V, but without seeing the V.
So simple and effective - first shot at 100 yards cut the edge of the bulls eye!

So, my little Simson .405 DR has three sighting options from which to choose.

Thanks MacD, I guess there is some difference between a doorknob two yards away and a critter 20 or 30 paces out.

Mounting a scope on a double rifle after it is regulated with out one is very often a regulation shifter. Todd bought a little 9.3/74 double rifle and had a scope installed a few years ago, and it scattered bullets all over the land after. He worked a long time but finally worked up a load that would regulate with both the scope and irons. In most cases a re-regulation is needed to get a fix. Todd was lucky in that case!
Anything added to a double rifle that changes the weight distribution will usually cause a regulation problem. That is why most go to the very light red dot sights because of the weight doesn't seem to be enough to change the muzzle flip that causes loss of good regulation.

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quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Mounting a scope on a double rifle after it is regulated with out one is very often a regulation shifter. Todd bought a little 9.3/74 double rifle and had a scope installed a few years ago, and it scattered bullets all over the land after. He worked a long time but finally worked up a load that would regulate with both the scope and irons. In most cases a re-regulation is needed to get a fix. Todd was lucky in that case!
Anything added to a double rifle that changes the weight distribution will usually cause a regulation problem. That is why most go to the very light red dot sights because of the weight doesn't seem to be enough to change the muzzle flip that causes loss of good regulation.

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I'm not sure it was luck. Hard headed persistence more likely.


I forget but I think it was 14 different loads I tried before I figured it out. And of all things, it came down to something silly. I went back to one of the loads I tried on no. 3 or 4, and added about an ounce of pillow stuffing for a filler. That's what finally did it. Strange something seemingly so insignificant would settle it down.

Thing is, that rifle will shoot anything you feed it, right to regulation without the scope mounted. Put the scope on and it goes haywire except for that single load. I should say 2 loads as it shoots with the CEB Non-Con's and the BBW#13 solid. Funny thing is though, if you put the plastic insert into the Non-Con or Safari Raptors as they are called now, it's no bueno again. It won't stabilize it with the inserts.

The first thing you do is determine which barrel is the more accurate as a double will only shoot as well as that barrel and only if shooting single shot..

The double is two separate guns btw.....Then I would sight in with the scope, then the irons still shooting only the best barrel, then I would see how well the worst barrel shot with scope and irons, and where it shot in reference to the worst barrel...Ive seen more than a few doubles that would shoot one barrel into about an inch or so, and the second barrel was the proverbial minute of grapefruit at 4 inches..

That gun or any double will only shoot as well as the worst barrel, and that is the goal your stuck with..

Complicated, maybe a little, but when all is doen and your working up loads use the worst barrel, the best barrel will shoot inside the worst barrels group, not visa versa....

The final test is to shoot it left right starting with the rear trigger, shoot right left, right left for your final group.
Surprisingly enough it usually works out and you know which barrel to shoot on a long shot, the best barrel of course..

Double rifles are totally independent of other rifles, nothing seems to be the same..Its a whole nuther mystic world..edging to witchcraft and voodoo, and do do!

Much like crshelton
I have several options on my 375Fl

Factory Iron folding leafs (unlikely with my eyes)
Doctor Optic (rib cut)
Swaro z6i 1.7-10
Peep (in the rear claw base)

Although I rarely remove the scope

A double should have two standing shallow V sights, perhaps a peep sight, to scope one is akin to sodomy, child molestation and only for the criminally insane..

I have found that SOME DRs will regulate with scope and without. Of course both the scope and the irons have to be adjusted to get the rifle shooting to POA at the chosen distance. I suppose one could set the scope up for longer range shooting, eg 100, and the irons for close work eg 30. But in the heat of the battle, these niceties are just that.

I tend to agree with Ray, a DR is intended for fast work in close cover and in a hurry, when needed. Irons are the ticket for that. However, when you are young enough to see irons, you don't have any money to spend on DR; and when you can afford one, you can't see irons. The compromise is a ghost ring of some sort. What I do is just wear an older set of glasses that allow me to see "well enough", but give me a crisp front sight.

If you want to snipe away at a distance, by all means use a scope but put it on a bolt rifle where the precision of the sight is matched with the precision of the rifle.