There is an importer/retailer here in Canada called Trade Ex Canada who sells a Verney-Carron O/U rifled 12 gauge. It is the Sagittaire Gros Gibier model. In pictures it looks like their O/U rifles in 9.3x74.

They have several in stock and displayed on their website. If you live in a shotgun-only area for deer, as I do, they are quite interesting. Any opinions or first-hand knowledge of these?

John

John: Sounds fascinating. I'll google their Web site.

If I lived in a shotgun only area I would want a double 12ga, SXS or O/U.

Doubles are a lot of gun to hunt with.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
If I lived in a shotgun only area I would want a double 12ga, SXS or O/U.

Doubles are a lot of gun to hunt with.

Or a Holland Paradox!

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
If I lived in a shotgun only area I would want a double 12ga, SXS or O/U.

Doubles are a lot of gun to hunt with.

Or a Holland Paradox!

Esecially when your Paradox shoots like a Sniper rifle.

quote:

Any opinions or first-hand knowledge of these?

here is me shooting my C-class fully rifled 12 bore, with normal slug loads.


and here is the full ele load.



IMHO these are some of the best tools for a hunter that you can get for money, most of them are fairly priced and if you spend enough time with them you can make them do magic.

remember to check the regulation before you put down cash as there is a big difference between a shotgun with rifled barrels, that will toss decent groups at 40-50 yeards and a 12 bore rifle made as a double rifle and that shoots to regulation with a known load, hence the price difference

sights for drivn hunting but actually pretty accurate.

the gun itself but a bad picture though

best

peter

Peter, thanks for the videos and photos of your beautiful 12gauge double. I'm sure there is a huge difference between the two classes of guns you mentioned. But what is it?

I've emailed the retailer and asked him if the gun will be registered as a shotgun or rifle (yes, registered...I'm in Canada, after all...) as this would be a critical factor in its legality for hunting in my area. I've also inquired as to ammunition required and test targets.

I assume that your SxS 12bore shoots ammo loaded into full-length brass cases? I need a gun that shoots garden-variety sabot loads from the hardware store. I don't want to get into a losing argument with a MNR enforcement officer (game warden).

The guns in question are advertised at $2395 Canadian. For comparison, an OU Verney-Carron in 9.3x74, with a much plainer finish on the metal parts, is listed at roughly $1000 more by the same retailer. This fact alone makes me question what kind of "regulation", if any, these guns will display.

I'll post what I hear back from the seller, but I'm not too hopeful that it will be what I want to hear.

John

The Sagittaire model comes from the production side of the factory (the AZUR sxs and SX O/U come from the custom shop) These are not fancy but are still good solid guns that have been in production since the 1960's. They make this gun in a number of variations with a number of options The guns are regulated and will come with a test target for 50 meters. I bring into the US a different version but only the small frame suitable for the 9.3x74R and 20ga fully rifled.
Traddex version
http://www.shop.tradeexcanada....s-gibier-12ga-rifled
US version, notice the frame is a different shape, different rib, no engraving, case colored action, EAW bases
http://www.kebcollc.com/cart/s...6&action=show_detail
I should also mention that Verney-Carron has been making and selling slug barrels under the Hastings name for 30 years, so they have experience making rifled slug barrels. The slug barrels are cold hammer forged

Kebco, thanks for that useful info. That's more data on the Verney-Carron guns than I've found anywhere on the net, and sounds quite positive. I wish the Trade-Ex guns looked as nice as those on your site, but I must admit that I prefer the 12gauge to the 20.

I'm eagerly awaiting a reply from Trade-Ex.

John

Just a quick update for any who might be interested: I received a reply from Trade-Ex regarding the 12gauge OU's. They are registered as shotguns and use standard shotgun sabot slug loads, so they would be quite legal in shotgun-only zones. However, the two guns they have in stock are not furnished with test targets. I'm sure that each barrel is individually capable of good accuracy, but personally I'm not too keen on a double gun that may or may not print both tubes anywhere near the same point of impact. Call me cynical, but I can't help but think that if they were well regulated, they would come with a target that showed off that fact.

Kebco, I almost peed myself when I noticed the test target in the link you provided. I noticed later that it was shot by the 9.3x74 rifle, not the 20gauge shotgun. Oh, well...

Thanks to all for your input.

John

John
i have answered in your post in red

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:
Peter, thanks for the videos and photos of your beautiful 12gauge double. I'm sure there is a huge difference between the two classes of guns you mentioned. But what is it?
i am not sure of that there is that much difference, both are plain working guns, mine proberly have a bit more handwork in it though, therefore they are priced at 6.5K$us
I've emailed the retailer and asked him if the gun will be registered as a shotgun or rifle (yes, registered...I'm in Canada, after all...) as this would be a critical factor in its legality for hunting in my area. I've also inquired as to ammunition required and test targets.

I assume that your SxS 12bore shoots ammo loaded into full-length brass cases? I need a gun that shoots garden-variety sabot loads from the hardware store. I don't want to get into a losing argument with a MNR enforcement officer (game warden).my 12 bore uses standard slug loads as well as a special load that i am developing at the moment, so it gives you 2 choices, one for pig busting etc. and one for the big stuff

The guns in question are advertised at $2395 Canadian. For comparison, an OU Verney-Carron in 9.3x74, with a much plainer finish on the metal parts, is listed at roughly $1000 more by the same retailer. This fact alone makes me question what kind of "regulation", if any, these guns will display.

I'll post what I hear back from the seller, but I'm not too hopeful that it will be what I want to hear.

John

john

you can get most smoothbore shotguns to shoot very well at 50 meters with standard brenneke loads.
this is with brenneke loads out of a one of my smooth bores, at around 50 yards
[img] [/img]
my 12 bores wont leave the factory, unless they stay with in 6" at 100 yards with 6 shots 3L+3R

i hope this helps

best

peter

Thanks, Peter, being forced to do most of my deer hunting with shotguns I've done a fair bit of experimentation over the years and have been able to achieve some very good results, not only with sabot loads in rifled barrels but with Brenneke and other slugs in smoothbores. I'm particularly impressed with the new TruBall slugs and the older Challengers, which surpass the accuracy of Brennekes in a number of my guns.

My main concern with these V-C doubles was the regulation, or lack thereof, of the barrels. The seller has contacted me a second time after I expressed my reservations, and has put my mind somewhat at ease. I will be forced to ease away from the constant pursuit of flatter trajectories, tighter groups and longer ranges that has occupied me up till now...I have a couple of rifled shotguns that will consistently take deer at 175-200 yards with sabots. I much prefer rifle shooting, so I guess I'm compensating?

If I could achieve consistent 4-shot, 2-barrel, 100-meter groups of five inches or so with one of these V-C doubles, I would have a 100-yard deer gun with which I could be happy. I'm just not sure if I want to spend $2400 to find out! If I get one I'll post with results.

Thanks for your help!

John