Im looking at a O/U in 9.3x74R. My thought was that I might be able to scope it for shots out to say 250m. Ive never dealt with O/Us before and have no clue how they are regulated--my only experience is with SxS guns.

The gun Im looking at is used and the shop that has it isnt much help. It does have the traditional grooved rail so mounting the scope isnt the issue--its the practicality of pushing a DR past "regulation"

Thoughts?

You should certainly be able to get one barrel to hit point of aim when a scope is mounted, as for the second barrel, PRAY! 250 is a long way out there.

I have a Tikka 512SD in 9.3x74R. It is scoped, but I have never shot it out to 250 yards. As JCS said, if all else fails, you can at least get one barrel to shoot to POA and know where the other one shoots. I will try it at 200 yards when I get the chance.
Peter.

I put a scope on my Zoli and found it works better than expected as shots lined up vertically with no side to side dispersement.

quote:

Originally posted by EDELWEISS:
Im looking at a O/U in 9.3x74R. My thought was that I might be able to scope it for shots out to say 250m. Ive never dealt with O/Us before and have no clue how they are regulated--my only experience is with SxS guns.

The gun Im looking at is used and the shop that has it isnt much help. It does have the traditional grooved rail so mounting the scope isnt the issue--its the practicality of pushing a DR past "regulation"

Thoughts?

EDELWEISS, you didn’t mention the make of the O/U double you are thinking of buying. Without knowing the make it becomes imposable to know if the rifle was properly regulated by the maker. ( If it is a Winchester Grand European, then forget about it being regulated properly)

That being said if it was properly regulated or has adjustable regulation, then it can be worked out with or without the scope.

The 9.3X74R rifle can do it’s job at 250 yds if the scope is zeroed for “point blank” range ( For that it would be about 3.5 inches high @ 100 yds)! This means you can hold dead on at all ranges from muzzle to 250 yds and still be in the kill zone.

I would start with zeroing the scope 3.5 inches high @ 100 yds shooting the top barrel with the barrel cool, and clean. Then fire the bottom barrel. If the rifle is regulated properly the bottom barrel should shoot just a little lower @100 yds.

If the rifle has a single non-selective trigger, then zero with the bottom barrel the same 3.5 inches high, and the top barrel will print just a little higher than the bottom barrel.

IMO scoping of a O/U double rifle is easier than with a S/S double, but both depend on how well the rifle is regulated.
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I might add that many O/U double rifles have the lower barrel capable of being "regulated", so, sight in the top barrel and then adjust the lower to shoot 1" lower at 250 yards.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I might add that many O/U double rifles have the lower barrel capable of being "regulated", so, sight in the top barrel and then adjust the lower to shoot 1" lower at 250 yards.
Peter.

I agree Peter, the one thing that is often the case the single trigger, on most O/U doubles fires the bottom barrel first and are non=selective. The zeroing the top barrel can still be done as you describe by placing a snap-cap in the bottom barrel and a live round in the top barrel pull the trigger once for the snap-cap and again for the live round, then regulate the bottom barrel accordingly.

NE 450 No2 (TONY) used a 9.3X74R S/S double rifle to shoot a moving coyote @ 289 yds, the first shot hitting the yote a little far back, stopping him and he starting spinning in place, the second shot hit the coyote dropping him for the count. I know this to be true because I witnessed it myself, on one of the DRSS hunts on Camp Cooley Ranch in Texas. That rifle was a chapuis S/S double with a scope in a quick detach ring and base set-up.


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I ended up with what may be the only Winchester Grand European that shoots quite well. It's a 9.3x74 and with it's favorite load will stay in 2" at 100 yds for 4 shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I might add that many O/U double rifles have the lower barrel capable of being "regulated", so, sight in the top barrel and then adjust the lower to shoot 1" lower at 250 yards.
Peter.

If it's adjustable why not regulate BOTH to POA at 250, worst case they'll be back to center-of-bore apart at 500 with gradual divergence further out.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I might add that many O/U double rifles have the lower barrel capable of being "regulated", so, sight in the top barrel and then adjust the lower to shoot 1" lower at 250 yards.
Peter.

If it's adjustable why not regulate BOTH to POA at 250, worst case they'll be back to center-of-bore apart at 500 with gradual divergence further out.

Jeffive, it seems you are assuming the barrels are supposed to cross at some range! That is a common misconception!

That is not the case however, when properly regulated the barrels shoot parallel to infinity!
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i dunno but both of my pair of Berattas are scoped. both shoot both barrels to impact,one groups into a inch at 100 and the other into about 2"

Sorry a bit more details, the rifle is a Antonio Zoli. Its a single trigger. It never occurred to me to check which barrel fired first.

As for range, yep 250m is really a rather long shot for 4 legged game, as far as Im concerned; but my guide said shots "could be" that far. Frankly I suspect I'll pass; but I'll be shooting from a rest in a blind, so IF Im feeling particularly good, it might be nice to have that option.

Honestly this will be the first time Ive hunted Whitetails since I was a kid in the 70s. Ive always preferred more dangerous game (Wild Boar, Bear), and like to get close. Id hate to pass up on an opportunity that I "could" take as much as Id hate to "muck up" a shot that I shouldnt take.

The Zoli is a very good double rifle and if you want you can order a complete double trigger set up.
Yours should work just fine for deer. Mine does

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I might add that many O/U double rifles have the lower barrel capable of being "regulated", so, sight in the top barrel and then adjust the lower to shoot 1" lower at 250 yards.
Peter.

If it's adjustable why not regulate BOTH to POA at 250, worst case they'll be back to center-of-bore apart at 500 with gradual divergence further out.

Jeffive, it seems you are assuming the barrels are supposed to cross at some range! That is a common misconception!

That is not the case however, when properly regulated the barrels shoot parallel to infinity!
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Mac,

Yeah, I've been lurking here long enough to have heard, if not absorb, the Gospel of the Infinite Regulation; this is a perfect opportunity to further my education.

I have no trouble understanding the problem with barrels that are regulated to converge at "regular" double ranges; one that converged at 50 yards would cross and fire two disparate groups several inches apart at 250 yards.

BUT, in most any caliber doubles are chambered for, and certainly for any use they have any business being put to, their employment at 250 yards (for most anybody not named Tony) would be considered approaching maximum range. A rifle regulated to (theoretically) print in one hole at that range would still be shooting within the bore spacing at 500 yards, and, so far as regulation goes, still be shooting reasonable groups at 750.

Why, if regulation is adjustable on a given rifle, would it NOT be preferable to have it regulated to converge at something like 250 (maybe 200 in something much larger than 9.3X74)?

I'm not talking about tradition, I'm talking about function.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Jeffive, it seems you are assuming the barrels are supposed to cross at some range! That is a common misconception!

That is not the case however, when properly regulated the barrels shoot parallel to infinity!
.....................................................................

Mac,

Yeah, I've been lurking here long enough to have heard, if not absorb, the Gospel of the Infinite Regulation; this is a perfect opportunity to further my education.

I have no trouble understanding the problem with barrels that are regulated to converge at "regular" double ranges; one that converged at 50 yards would cross and fire two disparate groups several inches apart at 250 yards.

BUT, in most any caliber doubles are chambered for, and certainly for any use they have any business being put to, their employment at 250 yards (for most anybody not named Tony) would be considered approaching maximum range. A rifle regulated to (theoretically) print in one hole at that range would still be shooting within the bore spacing at 500 yards, and, so far as regulation goes, still be shooting reasonable groups at 750.

Why, if regulation is adjustable on a given rifle, would it NOT be preferable to have it regulated to converge at something like 250 (maybe 200 in something much larger than 9.3X74)?



I'm not talking about tradition, I'm talking about function.

You are quite correct that a double rifle regulated to cross (CONVERGE) at a given range would diverge as it travels down range. With that I totally agree. However if a double rifle is regulated to converge at any range then it is not properly regulated. A properly regulated double rifle, even though the individual groups of each barrel get wider as the bullets travel down range and so the right side of the left barrel's individual group will spill over into the left side of the right barrel’s group and vice versa. The centers of each barrel's individual group will remain on it's own side of the center of the composite group of both barrels.

Because of this fact a properly regulated double rifle has only to be held higher for down range shooting regardless of range. All that is needed is hold over just the same as an iron sighted single barrel rifle.

As I said earlier, you are assuming that double rifles are regulated to cross at a given range, and that is not the case. The barrels are adjusted to converge so they will shoot parallel! This is because the barrels are fixed to the other barrel and when fired with the sights on the target, the barrel being fired under recoil moves UP, and AWAY from the other barrel while the bullet is traveling down the bore, called BARREL TIME, so that when the bullet exits the muzzle, it will be pointing to just on it's side of where sights were pointing when the trigger was pulled.

The confusion comes from the maker's habit of using the same word for both the manipulation of the barrels (REGULATION) and the filing (REGULATING)of the iron sights for elevation at a given distance ( small bore @ 100 yds, and the big bore at 25 or 50 yds). For anything past that point, one simply holds over for down range shooting no matter which barrel you are firing. The use of that word for two entirely different things causes the assumption that the barrels should print one ragged hole at the distance the sights are REGULATED for, and that is not the case!

If the barrels were simply, using a laser, placed exactly parallel, the rifle would shoot extremely wide from muzzle, and get wider as far as the rifle could shoot. If your double is shooting one ragged hole to any range then it is not regulated properly!

If you place the barrels from a double rifle in a vice with the sights dead on the distance engraved on the iron sights, then place two cartridge cases with on primers in the chamber of each barrel. Then look through the primer holes like a peep-sight, you will see that the RIGHT barrel will be pointing at a place on the target that is LEFT, and LOW of the aiming point of the sights, and vice-versa for the other barrel. The line of sight does cross, but when the rifle is fired the bullets do not, but shoot side by side, or in case of the O/U one above the other, parallel!


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Mac,
I'm not assuming doubles ARE regulated to "cross", I'm wondering why they aren't.

Go look through some of the dozens (or hundreds) of targets posted here. The majority show divergence, the center of the groups at 100 yards are almost invariably distinctly further apart than the centers of the bores. Since most of these targets are either 50 or 100 yard targets it indicates that the rifles would, at extended (250+) ranges, shoot groups separated by some inches. A rifle truly regulated to the "infinite parallel" standard should essentially shoot into one group at 100 yards, since the separation between the bore centers would rarely much exceed an inch even in Cal's latest .875 Nitro Express (he does have one, doesn't he?).

Take a .500 for ease of explanation. The centers of the bores would be 1/4 inch plus the distance between the barrels apart, very close to an inch in total. A theoretically perfectly-regulated double would place all rounds from the right barrel into a group centered 1/2 inch right of center, the left 1/2 inch left, for a composite group from both barrels printing within an inch-and-a-half at any range (center of both groups). Essentially, if perfectly regulated, the groups should be practically indiscernible from each other.

Targets displayed here almost invariably show groups with considerably more separation than that, usually something more like 2-3". If each barrel consistently shoots 2 MOA, and the barrels shoot 2 inches apart then composite groups would run to 6" at 100 yards, which would widen further out.

I suspect Heym and Butch and H&H know folks have been conditioned to expect separate groups straddling POA so that's what they deliver to avoid any hint of the dreaded "crossing", in reality erring the opposite way and regulating for divergence.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Mac,
I'm not assuming doubles ARE regulated to "cross", I'm wondering why they aren't.

Go look through some of the dozens (or hundreds) of targets posted here. The majority show divergence, the center of the groups at 100 yards are almost invariably distinctly further apart than the centers of the bores. Since most of these targets are either 50 or 100 yard targets it indicates that the rifles would, at extended (250+) ranges, shoot groups separated by some inches. A rifle truly regulated to the "infinite parallel" standard should essentially shoot into one group at 100 yards, since the separation between the bore centers would rarely much exceed an inch even in Cal's latest .875 Nitro Express (he does have one, doesn't he?).

Take a .500 for ease of explanation. The centers of the bores would be 1/4 inch plus the distance between the barrels apart, very close to an inch in total. A theoretically perfectly-regulated double would place all rounds from the right barrel into a group centered 1/2 inch right of center, the left 1/2 inch left, for a composite group from both barrels printing within an inch-and-a-half at any range (center of both groups). Essentially, if perfectly regulated, the groups should be practically indiscernible from each other.

Targets displayed here almost invariably show groups with considerably more separation than that, usually something more like 2-3". If each barrel consistently shoots 2 MOA, and the barrels shoot 2 inches apart then composite groups would run to 6" at 100 yards, which would widen further out.

I suspect Heym and Butch and H&H know folks have been conditioned to expect separate groups straddling POA so that's what they deliver to avoid any hint of the dreaded "crossing", in reality erring the opposite way and regulating for divergence.

Jeffive, even a perfectly regulated double rifle depends on the shooter to get what the regulation has to offer. What I'm referring to is what the MAKER'S regulator does to regulate the rifle, not how well the buyer can shoot.

This also applies to the owner working the adjustable regulation, and how well regulation is understood will show in the result of his adjustment of the regulation on his rifle.

The factory final regulation targets, that come with the new rifle, are worthless. They simply do not tell the new owner anything other than two bullets hit the target, at so and so range. A target that is useful is a target that shows four shots from each barrel, all fired from cool barrels, and each shot labeled as to which barrel they came from. This allows one to find the center of each barrels individual group. There is a need as well to explain the statement that it is the sights that are regulated to the distance not the barrels. Anything less is just window dressing and misleading.

The maker’s habit of using the same word for regulation of the barrels, and the filing of the sights at a particular range saying “This rifle is regulated to 50 yds!” is misleading and is what leads people to think the barrels are regulated to cross at that range, and I say again that is not the case! Then magazine writer who do not know either continue to state the same misconception. No wonder guys new to double rifles are so confused, when they can’t work up a regulating load for their new baby!


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EDELWEISS,

Enjoy your O/U Scoped 9.3x74R to the utmost!!!!!
I'd love to own one myself!!!!! Very Elegant they are...

i have german mounts for my zoli;s easy on easy off

Thought I would resurrect this thread:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...791062111#7791062111

it has apicture of my Tikka 512SD as well as some targets.
Peter.

Regulation changed from factory 150 grain .30-06 to reloaded 200 grain bullets. Had I known this in advance I would have paid extra!

The added weight of the claw mounts and scope radically changed the harmonics in this O/U. Once I got over the shock of the "surprise" all was well. Older eyes appreciate the scope.