Hey guys. I've always love DR's and have hunted with people and PH's that loved and used them, so I finally broke down and got one. I purchased a beautiful new Chapuis .470. It fit me well, had some upgrades on engraving, so I did it. Now, since I dont have reloading equipment and didn't feel like blowing myself up, I decided to let one of these custom reloading guys to make me about 5 loads to figure out which works the best. So I'm off to put 50 rounds through the double. 5 different loads, softs and solids. I shoot half at 25, half at 50 yards. (This is iron sights, I dont have a scope). I cant tell one hill of beans difference in the loads. I have a lead-sled to help with consistency, but guys, even with some major weight on the sled, this gun's recoil is enough to move it pretty significantly between each shot. In other words, I can't figure out how to be consistent enough with the shooting of this gun with iron sights to figure out which rounds are regulating properly in this gun. As a side note, I shot everything over a chrono as well, and all loads were between 2050 and 2160. None were way out of line, which didn't help me in my narrowing down of a proper load either. So I picked the load which seemed the most consistent on the chrono and looked reasonable on the targets and ordered 40 more of that load. Off to shoot that this next weekend. Any advice before then about ensuring this is the proper load would be very helpful.
Thanks for any advice.

I wouldn't use a leadsled, but that's just me. Get a PAST recoil pad for your shoulder.

Shooting at the bench rest your hand on front sandbags and then place the rifle forearm in your hand. Shoulder the rifle. Pull the front trigger first.

If using shooting sticks, rest the rifle forearm in your hand, your hand resting on the sticks.

Have fun!

+1 with what rusty said.

I have heard that a lead sled is not the best idea for hard kicking rifles, especially doubles.

#1 the gun will group diffrently from the sled than it will from off your shoulder in field conditions.

#2 there is not enough "give" in the sled (as compared to the human body) and you can break the stock shooting a hard kicking gun in a lead sled.

Good Luck

I picked the Chapuis 470 for my double and really like it. Have about 140 rounds through it now and am getting used to how it handles and shoots. After some shooting off the bench, I am now shooting carefully offhand at 25 meters and off sticks at 50 meters. The data from the guy's using Reloader 15 with Kynoch wads is giving me what I'm looking for. I have been using the hornady 500gr softs for practice and have just laid in a supply of woodleigh softs and solids for developing hunting loads as this is the bullet it was regulated for. I've not got a final load yet as I have not got a large supply of Reloader 15 in the same lot number. Really need a 8 pound jug to settle on the load. Usually go with 85 to 87 grs of reloader 15 for practice depending on the lot number of what I have on hand. These rifles are really great fun and plan on serious load work come the spring. I find it is much easier to shoot offhand or on sticks than off the bench.

quote:

by Stephen Goldfinch:
Hey guys. I've always love DR's and have hunted with people and PH's that loved and used them, so I finally broke down and got one. I purchased a beautiful new Chapuis .470. It fit me well, had some upgrades on engraving, so I did it. Now, since I dont have reloading equipment and didn't feel like blowing myself up, I decided to let one of these custom reloading guys to make me about 5 loads to figure out which works the best. So I'm off to put 50 rounds through the double. 5 different loads, softs and solids. I shoot half at 25, half at 50 yards. (This is iron sights, I dont have a scope). I cant tell one hill of beans difference in the loads. I have a lead-sled to help with consistency, but guys, even with some major weight on the sled, this gun's recoil is enough to move it pretty significantly between each shot. In other words, I can't figure out how to be consistent enough with the shooting of this gun with iron sights to figure out which rounds are regulating properly in this gun. As a side note, I shot everything over a chrono as well, and all loads were between 2050 and 2160. None were way out of line, which didn't help me in my narrowing down of a proper load either. So I picked the load which seemed the most consistent on the chrono and looked reasonable on the targets and ordered 40 more of that load. Off to shoot that this next weekend. Any advice before then about ensuring this is the proper load would be very helpful.
Thanks for any advice.


"Sleep When You're Dead!"

First off, as others have already said, the Lead Sled is not the thing to use with a side by side double rifle, or in fact with any very hard recoiling rifle with a wooden stock.

The S/S double rifle works by it’s own rules, and those rules are entirely different from a single barreled rifle. I will try to explain, but to most who shoot double rifle for any length of time this is simply a repetition of info they have known , and seen in print form me for some years.

First, the S/S double rifle especially must be allowed to go through its recoil arch as when held in the shooter’s hands. The S/S double rifle should touch nothing other than the shooters’ hands, face, and shoulder. NEVER rested directly on the sand bags, or anything else. This is because the barrels have to recoil in a certain way to shoot regulation. This is because the barrels are soldered to have the line of sight form each barrel look at a different place on the target when the sights are aligned on the target.

If you take the barrel set off your rifle, and clamp the lumps in a padded vice, with the front sight pointing to the bottom 6 o’clock on the bottom of the bull’s eye. Now place an empty case in each chamber, with the primer removed. Look through the primer hole in the empty case and note where that barrel is point on the target in relation to where the sights are pointing. Here you will see that the RIGHT barrel will be looking at a point on the target that is LOW, and on the LEFT of the point of aim with the sights. The LEFT barrel will be looking at a point that is LOW, and RIGHT of the aiming point. This SEEMINGLY says that the barrels shots will CROSS, but that is not the case.

The barrels have to be soldered with the LINE OF SIGHTS crossing, but the bullets do NOT cross at any distance. A thing called BARREL TIME causes this!

Barrel time is the time the bullets are traveling down the bores of the barrels before they exit the muzzles. If the load is proper for the regulation built into the rifle, the bullet from the RIGHT barrel will hit the target just RIGHT of the point of aim, and the bullet from the LEFT barrel will hit the target just LEFT of the point of aim. This because when a S/S double rifle is fired the barrel being fired recoils UP, and AWAY from the other barrel. This is the reason the recoil arch must not be modified by placing the rifle in anything that restricts the natural recoil arches of the barrels. Things like a LEAD SLED. The Lead Sled and some other devices that restrict the UP and to the SIDE motion of the double rifle under recoil, tends to place a lot of strain on the wrist area of the butt stock, especially if the rifle has a sharp recoil, can not only effect the regulation, but in fact break the stock in the wrist area.

...............Good shooting and welcome to the DRSS! The fun is just begining!

............ ....................

So what I get out of all of this is to shoot the rifle off-hand for proper regulation.?. This still has me wondering how to shoot consistent enough at 50 meters to figure out if the load is "proper" or not. At 25 meters, it's not such a big deal. But at 50 meters, with iron sights, off-hand, or even with sticks, is near impossible to be inch-by-inch consistent enough for me to determine what load is proper. In other words, I put 5 different loads, 10 of each load all aiming at center of target: Some times the same load is 2 inches apart, some time it's 6 inches apart. From this kind of consistency, how do I tell which load is right? Is my distance wrong? Should I be shooting closer?
Thanks for all the good advice.

Stephen, congratulation on you Chapuis.

I agree I would never shoot a double on a lead sled. [Actually I would not shoot ANY gun on one].

You will be hunting with it off had or of of sticks or kneeling.

I shoot my doubles off hand at 25, off hand and kneeling at 50, and kneeling at 100 when testing loads.

Untill you feel comfortable shooting off hand 50 just shoot kneeling.

I have helped 3 different people develop loads for a Chapuis 470, and I have shot a few others.

They have been one of the easiest doubles to find a load for.

Also have your custom loader load you some 400gr Hornady pistol bullets for the 475 Linebaugh with the same powder charge.
These work good for practice. You might have to have the charge adjusted a few grains up or dwon, but it is usually retty easy to get them to shoot with the full power loads.

So, what I'm gathering is that you guys are getting consistent patterns and can tell a properly regulated load at 50 meters off-hand with these big-bores.?. Maybe I'm just not used to shooting a double yet, but a .470 at 50 meters is hard for me to have anything less than 6-8 inch patterns. And that kind of a pattern, (I dont think) can tell me anything about a load. Shouldn't the shots on a proper load typically be side by side? How can I tell if I can't get my patterns less than 6 inches at 50 meters?
Thanks Again.

After reading my last post, I'm beginning to think that maybe I'm splitting hairs. If I can put a load in a pie plate at 50 meters, and can do that consistently, and the chrono has me somewhere around 2100 with that particular load...is that good enough? Does it have to be perfect? Will it hurt the barrels or the rifling over time if it's not perfect? As a side-note, these are woodleigh 500 grs, and not something unusually hard that might hurt the gun.

Yes, do not anquish over "accuracy" now.

If the load shoots good at 25 yards and does not cross, and is hitting with the sights at 50, then just get a bumch of ammo and go "plinking".

Go to the woods and [safely of course] shoot rocks, cactus etc.

Shoot a few shots at 100 yards as well.

As you get better shooting off hand then you will know if the load you have is good enough.

Also start shooting a 22LR off hand and some of your other rifles.

Many people who go from Bolt Rifle Trash, to a double worry to much about bench rest accuracy.

Aftar a some field practice take that double pig hunting.

Thanks. That makes me feel a little better. I'll put 50 more rounds through it in the next 2 weeks, and then I'm off to Africa for my 3rd trip of the year. I'm taking the gun with me. I hope to have everything worked out with it by then.

If you are leaving for Africa in a few weeks i would stay off the bench nd practice off hand.

Sounds like you are doing fine to me.

Keep us posted on you new double.

If you are hitting a pie plate offhand at 50 yards then I would say you are good to go.

Good luck on your Safari.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Goldfinch:
So what I get out of all of this is to shoot the rifle off-hand for proper regulation.?. This still has me wondering how to shoot consistent enough at 50 meters to figure out if the load is "proper" or not. At 25 meters, it's not such a big deal. But at 50 meters, with iron sights, off-hand, or even with sticks, is near impossible to be inch-by-inch consistent enough for me to determine what load is proper. In other words, I put 5 different loads, 10 of each load all aiming at center of target: Some times the same load is 2 inches apart, some time it's 6 inches apart. From this kind of consistency, how do I tell which load is right? Is my distance wrong? Should I be shooting closer?
Thanks for all the good advice.

Stephen, you can sand bag the double rifle, but I guess I didn't make myself clear! what you have to do is HOLD the for-end in your hand, and rest your hand on the bag. Do not place sand bags under the butt of the rifle. That is what I meant. nothing should touch the rifle other than your hands, face, and shoulder. It is best to place the sand bag in something high enough so that you can shoot standing errect. This is solid enough to get some idea of the real group your rifle is printing. The shooting should be no more than six shots in a string, then let the rifle cool back to the SO-CALLED room temprature, befor the next six. The double rifle is a hunting rifle, and is designed to be fired with the first shot from cool barrels, with the second shot withing 5 seconds of the first, re-load, and fire the next two withing the next 5 seconds. Then let the barrels cool. this duplicated hunting. As Tony says the very best practice is stump shooting, picking targets at unknown ranges and practice snap shooting off hand with the first shot, and quickly follow up with the other barrel at the same target. The rifle will become an extention of your body after a little time in the woods. If you are staying on the bottom flat of a paper plate off hand at 50 yds, all you need do is some more shooting, because that is all that is needed on a cape buffalo at 50 yds.

............You've got it going!

Thanks Guys! I'll keep you informed.

Stephan-
My suggestion is to try and overcome the inertia and start hand loading. The cost of ready made 470 cartridges is so high that volume shooting is impractical. Nix on the lead sled for doubles.
Once you can get a couple hundred rounds through it, it will become oh-so comfortable and natural. Besides cost, you can load lower velocity practice rounds with 5744. There are some horror stories about blow-ups with this powder, but I got the loading data from Butch Searcy himself, and if he thinks it's OK, I'm going with it.
Imagine being able to go out and knock off forty or fifty practice rounds in an afternoon without beating yourself up or breaking the bank! I always end a session with a half dozen real hunting loads just to keep myself honest.
Starting to load is kind of intimidating, but isn't rocket science. Well, it's pretty basic rocket science. The forums here will give you plenty of support. The cost of equipment will be covered with the first few boxes of shells. You'll become familiar with your rifle, its capabilities, and your own.

Congratulations on your purchase. Your choice of weapon and cartridge shows excellent judgement. I look forward to your hunting report!