At what point in the process do you play with bullet seating. Example 1" The load is almost shooting together, but you don't want to add more powder do you just seat out to increase pressure" example 2 The loads are shooting together ,but the grouping is not quite what you were hopeing far, do you play with seating deph or just change powder? What can you expect from seating either deeper or futher out?


JD

Personally
Example 1 - I'd leave it as I like my shots
to be 1/2 - 1" apart.

Example 2
This is where after playing around with all combinations (of course changing only 1 thing
at a time), the group is good but you reckon it could be a little better. This is when I personally will play with seating depth.

If that fails to have an effect and I am still not happy with the groups, I try another powder et al combination.


I think sometimes some people do go over board with group sizes and try to make tack holers out of DR's !!!

Since you posted this in the DR forum, I'm assuming you are talking about seating depth for a DR. If the the bullet has a crimp groove, I have ALWAYS used it...the recoil is simply too great and a bullet could move after you fire the FIRST shot. If the bullet doesn't have a crimp groove (I personally haven't used a bullet without one in a DR), you will still need to use the Lee factory crimp or something similar to provide a solid crimp. In this case you could play with seating depth.
If a DR is not shooting to the same POA, I have had to vary the powder charge/velocity to get the POI/POA to be the same...not the greatest situation, but it has happened. Thank goodness not in any of my doubles.
I think you should continue to play with powder charges and possibly bullet selection to get it to shoot correctly.

Best of luck.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Only time I can recall noticing much difference was when using spitzers in a double regulated with RN. In that particular rifle, spitzers had to be seated out farther than RN of the same weight or they would cross.

Generally, I seat to the crimp groove, or to OAL of original Kynoch ammo, which most rifles seem to like the best.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Gary

I beg to differ re using the crimp groove and crimping - I very rarely if at all crimp my loads but I do make sure my neck tension is tight enough.

The other factor is changing parts of loads to adjust regulation you didn't mention is the primer which can have quite a big effect as well - a different primer can be the same as adding or decreasing 2 - 3 grains of powder.

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
If the the bullet has a crimp groove, I have ALWAYS used it...the recoil is simply too great and a bullet could move after you fire the FIRST shot. If the bullet doesn't have a crimp groove (I personally haven't used a bullet without one in a DR), you will still need to use the Lee factory crimp or something similar to provide a solid crimp.

I never crimp double rifle ammunition as there's no need whatsoever to do so. DR rounds aren't magazine rifle rounds with half caliber necks. They have long necks that provide full length contact on the bullet and hold it quite well, obviating the need to crimp. Graeme Wright and Pierre van der Walt have both made similar observations.

I've tested both bullet pull from recoil and uniformity with uncrimped ammo in a variety of heavy double rifles, and have never seen an instance where a need to crimp was indicated. The most uniform DR velocities I've ever gotten have been with uncrimped ammo. I've also marked a loaded, uncrimped round and rotated it into the off barrel until 10 full power rounds had been fired with it next door, and have never once had a bullet move even slightly. Just make sure your expander ball isn't too large and forego crimping. It's a waste of time.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Gents....I guess I should have said about having great enough "neck tension" on the round. My 470 reloads, with a Kynoch wad, DID move slightly after 3 rounds fired....I was checking solids/softs from the right barrel. That being said, turning down the expander ball a touch would have eliminated that issue as you all have stated...and those expander balls can vary from die to die. I would have to stand by my statement, however, that unless one was very prudent in making sure enough neck tension was present and accounted for, crimping would positively eliminate the problem. DG rifles are not the place for "walking" bullets.....and my first usage of my 470 "in combat" was to drop a pissed off buff.

500N...yes, I noticed the difference between CCI 250's and Fed 215M's....about 2" at 60 yards....I agree 100%.

Good info here on all posts.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Garby

I don't just shoot at the range - take DR's hunting every year and through some rough treatment so I would be the first to crimp if I felt it was needed.

With primers, I generally work on the difference between Fed 210's and Fed 215's as being between the equivalent of 2 and 3 grains of powder - of course this varies depending on the cartridge with a more pronounced effect on smaller cases - 9.3 x 74R, 375H&H etc.

I've tried to standardise my primer usage to Fed 215's, that way you see or notice other changes.

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
Gents....I guess I should have said about having great enough "neck tension" on the round. My 470 reloads, with a Kynoch wad, DID move slightly after 3 rounds fired....I was checking solids/softs from the right barrel. That being said, turning down the expander ball a touch would have eliminated that issue as you all have stated.

Correct. Your expander ball was too large, and turning it down would have cured the problem entirely. Most dies come with an expander ball only one or two thou below bullet diameter. That's fine for a .243, but downright dumb for a large bore.

quote:

..and those expander balls can vary from die to die. I would have to stand by my statement, however, that unless one was very prudent in making sure enough neck tension was present and accounted for,

That's just part of proper case prep in handloading any rifle ammunition. Yes, expander balls can vary. That's why I simply remove them and discard. I never use them for DR ammo - the simplest, most reliable method for eliminating any such problem entirely.

quote:

crimping would positively eliminate the problem.

No. I found that without enough neck tension to prevent movement to begin with, crimping won't eliminate bullet pull from recoil. I changed my method due to walking bullets in a .470 long ago. Cases were sized with the standard expander in place and bullets were well crimped - and jumped the crimp. Tossed expander ball, stopped crimping, problem solved.

quote:

DG rifles are not the place for "walking" bullets.....and my first usage of my 470 "in combat" was to drop a pissed off buff.

Precisely why I never crimp DR ammunition. Double rifles don't have anything like the camming power of bolt rifles and a round with even a slightly buggered crimp that a bolt rifle would swallow without a hitch can prevent a double rifle from closing.

Read Pierre van der Walt's "Big Bore Cartridge Load Data Collection" sometime. His comments about crimping DR ammo are spot on. He agrees with Wright, and doesn't recommend it. There are good reasons not to do it - saves aggravation, more reliable ammo, etc - and no good reason to do it.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Yes, expander balls can vary. That's why I simply remove them and discard.

No balls?

Right, no expander buttons. How's that? Geez,one has to be way too careful around here.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I thought I was getting too damn old to learn something new......wrong. I'm going to find a copy of the book you recommend.

Thanks for the info.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
At what point in the process do you play with bullet seating. Example 1" The load is almost shooting together, but you don't want to add more powder do you just seat out to increase pressure" example 2 The loads are shooting together ,but the grouping is not quite what you were hopeing far, do you play with seating deph or just change powder? What can you expect from seating either deeper or futher out?


JD

JD,
You decrease pressure when you seat the bullet further out and increase pressure when the bullet is seated deeper.
Bill

GarBy:

Publisher is Zimbi Books. www.zimbibooks.com.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burn gunpowder."

THANKS!....I was having trouble finding it.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC