Do I guess correctly that most participants here shoot SxS doubles? If so why are they more desirable than O/U?

My take on it is this: A lot of it has to do with the angle you have to open an O/U to reload compared to a SXS.

The angle is much bigger otherwise, the O/U would be the better choice. If you don't get the gun completely open, then you are wasting time, and if hunting dangerous game...putting yourself in jeopardy. Since the angle to open a S/S is much smaller, there is less chance of having this be an issue.

AKMATT

O/U isn't a double! Well you can call them 2 barrel guns.

What MattMoore says is exactly correct. However, it is not of such significance when hunting non dangerous game. Other factors for consideration are as follows:
1. SXS, with Americans especially, are more popular, more well liked, because, in part, because of traditional tastes in double rifles, begun by the British. However, for most, if not all, American big game hunting, a sxs OR an O/U will both serve well. O/U are preferable by most shot gunners, so perhaps many of them would prefer O/U to conform to their already acquired tastes.
2. O/U are more difficult to make, so should be more expensive, but demand isn't strong in U.S., so O/U don't sell as easily here, thus prices tend to be lower for O/U.
3. O/U are a bit easier to regulate, than sxs, because bottom barrel on O/U is much like a single shot rifle with more straight recoil, compared to upward & to left or right recoil on sxs. Top barrel on O/U flips barrel upward, but not to left/right, like sxs. Because of these factors, many shooters prefer the type of recoil from an O/U, compared to a sxs.
4. Personally, I like an O/U for some types of hunting, and like a sxs for other types of hunting. An O/U is more suitable for a scope, than a sxs; looks better, and functions better too, I think. A sxs with scope looks too much like a beautiful motorcycle with a sidecar.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
O/U isn't a double! Well you can call them 2 barrel guns.

Spot on Sam!

Most SxS doubles drop fully open when you break them and a few O&U doubles need to be forced further open and in that case the S&S is a tiny bit quicker to load ( sometimes a tiny bit is very important ) But my 450/400 Zoli O&U double drops wide open and is just a quick to load as any SxS I have used

quote:

Originally posted by doubleriflejack:
What MattMoore says is exactly correct. However, it is not of such significance when hunting non dangerous game. Other factors for consideration are as follows:
1. SXS, with Americans especially, are more popular, more well liked, because, in part, because of traditional tastes in double rifles, begun by the British. However, for most, if not all, American big game hunting, a sxs OR an O/U will both serve well. O/U are preferable by most shot gunners, so perhaps many of them would prefer O/U to conform to their already acquired tastes. O/U are more difficult to make, so should be more expensive, but demand isn't strong in U.S., so O/U don't sell as easily here, thus prices tend to be lower for O/U. O/U are a bit easier to regulate, than sxs, because bottom barrel on O/U is much like a single shot rifle with more straight recoil, compared to upward & to left or right recoil on sxs. Top barrel on O/U flips barrel upward, but not to left/right, like sxs. Because of these factors, many shooters prefer the type of recoil from an O/U, compared to a sxs.Personally, I like an O/U for some types of hunting, and like a sxs for other types of hunting. An O/U is more suitable for a scope, than a sxs; looks better, and functions better too, I think. A sxs with scope looks too much like a beautiful motorcycle with a sidecar[/QUOTE


QUOTE]Originally posted by 458Win:
Most SxS doubles drop fully open when you break them and a few O&U doubles need to be forced further open and in that case the S&S is a tiny bit quicker to load ( sometimes a tiny bit is very important ) But my 450/400 Zoli O&U double drops wide open and is just a quick to load as any SxS I have used

I must say here that if I wanted to hunt anything more dangerous than a coyote with an Over Under double rifle, the example above would be my choice! This Zoli, and it’s chambering of 450/400NE 3 inch is about as well designed for the purpose Phil puts it too that anyone could ask for in an O/U double rifle. This rifle has a completely removable trigger group for cleaning a proper lubing for the type of country, weather and game Phil guides for and hunts himself!

I only have one question to his comment (in red) that the rifle is as quick to reload as a S/S double! Phil can you reload both barrels simultaneously with the stack barrels, and especially with the scope mounted??????? If not then it is a lot slower to reload than a S/S.

I basically agree with DRJ on the above quoted post, with a couple exceptions! #1 the O/U double rifle is not HARDER to make than a side by side double rifle. In fact is a system that can almost be made completely on CNC machines, requiring only decorative shaping, and the fitting of the lower mono-bloc to the action to be done by hand. The barrels sets are a combination of MONO-BLOC and PLATFORM barrels. Matter of fact where the rifle is sold, or popularity in the USA has nothing to do with the price point! Regulation is far easier to accomplish on an O/U, adding to the lower price.
Most O/U double rifles are fitted with non-selective single triggers, and this is set to fire the bottom barrel first! The reason for this is the rifle is far stronger when firing the bottom barrel that when firing the top barrel. The O/U double rifle is a far better designed double rifle if fitted with two triggers, and if fitted with a single trigger it should NEVER be a non selective trigger even if the trigger is a mechanically re-set (not reset by recoil) . Taylor had a lot to say about single triggers on double rifles that would be used on dangerous game! He said that if one insisted on a single trigger on a double rifle it should always be the SELECTIVE type! This served two purposes. #1 if you have misfire on the right barrel the mechanically re-set trigger is re-set to the left barrel, and #2 it didn’t depend on the recoil of the misfired barrel to re-set the trigger to the other barrel.

Getting a misfire on the right or lower barrel in this case barrel and not knowing why the rifle misfired on the right, you reload the barrel that fired only, then you have to remember select trigger to the left or upper barrel because when the rifle was opened it re-set the trigger to the right or lower barrel again. If that barrel misfired because of a broken or stuck firing pin is something you don’t know, and you know the left or lower barrel DOES FIRE that is the barrel you want the trigger to trip! With double triggers you simply use the rifle like a single shot, and only pull the trigger on the barrel you are re-loading.

On the reloading of either type simultaneously the picture at the top of this double rifle forum, and at the sig-line at the bottom of this post is an example of proper simultaneously re-loading of a side by side, and doesn’t work with an O/U especially when mounted with a scope!

………………………………………………………….. Just sayin!

458Win: Is that you Phil? Weren't there some regulation issues with that Zoli?
Lovely photo. I have an old Filson just like yours that's probably fifty years old.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
458Win: Is that you Phil? Weren't there some regulation issues with that Zoli?
Lovely photo. I have an old Filson just like yours that's probably fifty years old.

I think you may be thinking of the OTHER ZOLI! There are two, and this one is the A.ZOLI

I can't remember the other Zoli's forst name, but that one had some problems with regulation. The real problem O/U double rifle is the Winchester Grand Europian, and unfortunatly the Win Chester is one most smiths refuse to re-regulate. I have one of those, and each barrel will shoot 1 inch individual groups, unfortunatly thse two groups are 5 inches apart at 50 yds!

I've not heard of a regulation problem with the Antonio Zoli double rifles!

Mac, Without the scope it is just as easy to drop two rounds into my Zoli O&U as it is with a SxS. Comparing the O&U to a SxS with scope on both the O&u is easier.

As for the regulation on my rifle, I discovered that it is regulated properly at 50 yards with Kynoch loads and the Hornady loads I first tried were shooting apart. both barrels shot great groups but if I sighted the lower barrel to be on at 100 yards then the top barrel was on at 300. As long as I knew that it was not a bad setup as for backup at rock throwing distances both barrels were within and inch anyway.

quote:

at rock throwing distances both barrels were within and inch anyway.

It wasn't designed to be a varmint rifle anyway, unless your varmints happen to be brown and square 9 feet. :-)

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
But my 450/400 Zoli O&U double drops wide open and is just a quick to load as any SxS I have used

Ah-ha!

FINALLY someone with a Zoli O/U.
Based on your short writing you seem to like the rifle.

What kind of experiences have you had with it: good/bad?
Would you recommend one?

This is the gun that has probably fit me best off-the-shelf (besides the CCS525 Browning). Alas, the Verney-Carron was, for me, the gun with the worst fit so far besides a custom-made Franz Sodia. Also the Beretta whatever O/U does not suit me.
I have spotted one at a reasonable price and I've been pondering whether I should buy it. It's in 8x57 but of course bigger barrels are available.

- Lars/Finland

Lars, I did a feature on the Zoli for Rifle magazine that came out in the March edition this year. I really like the rifle.
When at SCI show I showed them to Robin Hurt and he was impressed enough that he went back to his booth and Paulo Zoli told me that later that day two of Robin's PH's came over and ordered rifles.

I like it because I can reach out well over 100 yards like on the blacktail on Kodiak


Plus it has this feature



The 450/400 works for bears as well

I find it is easier to drop 2 in at the same time on my scoped valmont o/u than on my scoped sxs,there is also easier to hit the action latch because of the extra high of the scopemounts. With out scope the sxs wins hands down. I hardly ever shoot the o/u since I got the sxs.

JD

I find it just as fast to grab two rounds off my belt and drop them in the Zoli O&U as it is to drop them in a SxS. It takes a lot less time to do it than to tell about it.

That Zoli is beautiful.

quote:

Originally posted by Hizzie:
That Zoli is beautiful.

The English do make nice SxS guns but the Italians know something about beauty and O&U's

I liked the Zoli as well and that 450/400 would be my choice if I was starting again down the double rifle road.

And yes, the Zoli is one heck of alot quicker to reload than my Krieghoff!

Plus the recoil of the 450/400, especially in an O&U, is not so bad that you still might have an extra tooth

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Mac, Without the scope it is just as easy to drop two rounds into my Zoli O&U as it is with a SxS. Comparing the O&U to a SxS with scope on both the O&u is easier.

It‘s all a matter of practice I suppose and without a scope they would be close, however very few O/U double rifles are not fitted with a scope, and Most S/S double are irons only. Your O/U was set up properly with double triggers, and QD scope mount. For the Alaska weather the removable trigger group is a plus as well. As I said before if I wanted a new O/U double rifle the Zoli would be “IT” set up exactly the same way and chambered the same as well. Absolutely perfect for Alaska.

quote:

As for the regulation on my rifle, I discovered that it is regulated properly at 50 yards with Kynoch loads and the Hornady loads I first tried were shooting apart. both barrels shot great groups but if I sighted the lower barrel to be on at 100 yards then the top barrel was on at 300. As long as I knew that it was not a bad setup as for backup at rock throwing distances both barrels were within and inch anyway.

Phil do you really like the rifle sighted in that way? If that works for you that is OK! Does the rifle shoot that way with the irons as well? If this is only with the scope, then the reason it is that way is not because of regulation but improper zeroing of the SCOPE. You must remember you are shooting TWO rifles not one and both barrels are not supposed to hit the same hole !

If I understand your post correctly you adjusted the scope dead on the bullet hole for the bottom barrel, and expected the top barrel to hit that same hole! That is an incorrect assumption fostered by many magazine writers who don't really understand double rifle regulation.

Double rifle’s barrels are not supposed to hit the same at ANY RANGE! They are supposed to shoot parallel(in the case of O/Us one above the other) from muzzle to infinity! This misconception that the barrels are supposed to cross at a given point down range has caused more people to sell what they thought was a poorly regulated rifle than any other reason. If both barrels hit the same hole at any range then the rifle is crossing at that range and will shoot wider, and wider as they go down range!

Most folks that have O/U doubles with a scope never even shoot the rifle with the irons, and then zero the scope improperly! This is not a recipe for poor shooting of an otherwise fine rifle.

First off a double rifle is designed to be fired, starting with cool barrel set ( as it would be when hunting) ! So, to get a proper zero with the scope what is needed is to fire two shots from cool barrel on separate targets for each barrel in the sequince of btm, tp., let ehe barrls cool fire two more shots, each barrel on it’s own target, let the barrels cool again, and fire two more the same way. NOW, find the center of each barrel’s individual group. Measure the distance from the aiming point to the center of each barrel’s induvidual group CENTER. NOW adjust the scope to a point of aim exactly half between the CENTERS of each barrel individual groups! Now with the barrels cool fire four shots on one target at 100 yds fired Btm, tp, btm, tp for a composite group of both barrels. The top barrel should have it’s center just above the POA, and bottom barrel just below the POA.

The center may not be exactly one above the other in a vertical line but will be close, and with the scope zeroed half way between those centers, I think you will fined both barrels will be hitting about the same at what ever range you shoot!

The Sode by side double rifle will be zeroed the same only the group’s centers will be on either side of the aiming point! PARALLEL is the KEY!

When the maker says; “This rifle is regulated at 100 yds what he is referring to is the iron sights are filed to be bead on at that distance, not that both barrel will hit the same hole at 100 yds !

....................................................

Mac, I certainly understand the concept and execution of using double rifles. Their one - and only - forte us that they offer a quick second shot and on dangerous game a close range that CAN be a life saver.
Getting two different barrels, giving two different vbelocities, to regulate at some arbitrary distance is difficult - but it can be done. My rifle was regulated with Kynoch loads at 50 yards and it shoot both barrels within an inch and a half at that distance. With the factory Hornady load I had on hand it places them five inches apart at the same distance. Both with iron sights and with the scope.
I took a unique approach and decided to sight the lower barrel in dead-on at 100 yards and then checked to see where the top barrel was shooting. You are correct that with Hornady ammo I basically have two accurate single-shot rifles. But with the additional advantage of also having a double rifle for up close and personal.

Show me a SxS that can do that.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Mac, I certainly understand the concept and execution of using double rifles. Their one - and only - forte us that they offer a quick second shot and on dangerous game a close range that CAN be a life saver.
Getting two different barrels, giving two different vbelocities, to regulate at some arbitrary distance is difficult - but it can be done. My rifle was regulated with Kynoch loads at 50 yards and it shoot both barrels within an inch and a half at that distance. With the factory Hornady load I had on hand it places them five inches apart at the same distance. Both with iron sights and with the scope.
I took a unique approach and decided to sight the lower barrel in dead-on at 100 yards and then checked to see where the top barrel was shooting. You are correct that with Hornady ammo I basically have two accurate single-shot rifles. But with the additional advantage of also having a double rifle for up close and personal.

Show me a SxS that can do that.

Phil, I have no problem with the way you have set up your rifle, that is a personal thing, and if that floats your canoe, it's your canoe!

I would ask, however why would you want loads of different speeds in each barrel, or is that the barrels shoot the same load at very different speeds?

As far as the S/S double rifle "doing that" if regulated properly it does that automatically, only close in both barrels shoot the same and long range both barrels shoot the same, I simply do not see the problem with that! That is the way a double rifle is suppose to shoot. Off the end of the barrels the bullets are so close together it is impossible to tell which barrel they came from, even if the regulation is off quite a bit, however if the regulation is up to snuff, they will shoot side by side or one above the other depending on the barrel configuration, close or far, with only hold over for longer range. However, if the rifle is "SCOPED" and the aiming point is not set to a point that is half way between the two barrels group centers one barrel will be dead on, and the other barrel will be very far off past spitting distance!

A properly regulated or and/or properly sighted in double rifle of either O/U or S/S will be dead on at close range with both barrels and both barrels will still be accurate and shooting together at long range, with only hold over for elevation, as well.


Properly loaded, and sighted in both barrels shoot the same no matter the range. In my experience with folks who have a problem with the barrels not shooting together is always one of two things, the load is not right as with your Hornady, and with the Kynoch you are OK, if the scope was zeroed to half way between the printing of the two barrels on the target at the 50 yd range where the rifle is shooting to regulation with the irons both barrels will still be shooting together at longer range!

Phil I think you are mistaking my advice as a mandate for you to do as I say, that however is not the case here. As I said before if the way you have your rifle set up works for you I couldn't care less! It is just that when I find someone with a double rifle that seemingly doesn't shoot the barrels together, I try to make them aware of "WHY" it is happening in case they aren’t aware of why. If they simply do not know, the advice will simply save them the waste of a lot of very expensive ammo. If they like the rifle shooting the way it does fine, but if they want it to shoot properly then they are armed with the correct procedure!

I have bought double rifles for a "song and sang it myself", because the new owner thought he was getting rid of a lemon, when the only problem with the rifle was he simply didn't know how to make it shoot properly and didn’t want to listen to something he simply didn’t believe.

Top that off with the fact that a full 90% of the problem was a double rifles with a scopes is that it was not zeroed properly. Three rifles I bought that way would shoot properly with the irons, but were way off with the way the scope was zeroed. Two of the most often problems were first and foremost the simple re-zeroing of the scope, but on other occasions it was because of a very heavy scope, mounted too high above the bore to accommodate a large belled scope throwing the muzzle flip off completely.

Phil please disregard all my posts on this subject, if you think I was simply telling you what to do, or trying to make you look bad here that is certainly not the case. However, even if you know the problem but simply choose to have your rifle set so it works for you the way it is, others may benefit from this information, and if it turns on just one light for someone, then it was worth the bandwidth!

..............................................................

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37:

I would ask, however why would you want loads of different speeds in each barrel, or is that the barrels shoot the same load at very different speeds?

/QUOTE]

Mac, Virtually any two barrels, whether on bolt rifles, single shots or doubles, will give different velocities with the same load simply due to their unique makeup. That was all I was referring to.
thanks for your input.

Phil,

What does that Zoli of yours go for?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37:

I would ask, however why would you want loads of different speeds in each barrel, or is that the barrels shoot the same load at very different speeds?

/QUOTE]

Mac, Virtually any two barrels, whether on bolt rifles, single shots or doubles, will give different velocities with the same load simply due to their unique makeup. That was all I was referring to.
thanks for your input.

Thank you for the explanation! I know that but I understood your post to mean you were using two different loads, my mistake! You are correct that all barrel produce slightly different velocities, even from shot to shot, or box to box of ammo with the same load. But it is not normally enough to effect regulation noticeably! No load or barrel will be perfect all the time, if ever, with every shot, no matter how expensive or well made and regardless of barrel configuration.

Your 1 ½ inch composite group at 50 yds is about as good as could be asked for! That rifle shoots very well!

By the way, I was going to ask if you got any ten footers this year? I have always wanted a true 10 foot brown bear! I’ve fed a lot of them with my caribou, but were not accompanied by guide, or with paper for them! Nick Perscalla offered me one a problem bear, that he wanted to take out but didn’t have anything but a 12 ga shotgun, and I was hunting with a 375 H&H. I had already been on the Mulchatna 12 days, and would have to stay another three or four days with Nick till the season opened to avoid paper work, and pay Greg Bell for another flight all the way from Soldotna to Nick’s landing at Over look Mountain! I’ve always regretted not taking that bear. Every time I see that picture on your posts I remember turning that bear down!

..................................................

Phil..if you use decent ammo like was used to regulate the rifle it regulates quite well I suppose you want your cases nickel plated as well

Lilguy:

Traditionalists like side-by-side doubles but there is absolutely nothing wrong with an OU double. Both Chapuis and Verney-Carron make OU doubles and they usually sell for 60% of the price or their side-by-side counterparts. A 450/400 OU double would be a fantastic rig, especially if you are used to an OU shotgun. It should have two triggers.

Phil,
I was at the show in Dallas,I handled a rifle such as yours,I was pretty impressed and am thinking of maybe aquiring one,I have a question for you,have you chronoed any of the loads that you are shooting in your rifle?

Both the Hornady and Kynoch ammo are running in the mid 2100's. Typically between 2140 and 2170fps.
I have only done marginal reloading so far but intend to put in more effort this summer using more powders and everything from pistol bullets to 350 and 400 A-Frames, Woodleighs and Hornady DGX bullet. This Zoli is solid, dependable, light weight, well balanced and quick handling and is the only double I have used that even comes close to the versatility and accuracy of a bolt gun.

I also removed the cheek piece and reshaped the butt stock to fit me perfectly. That is not something you would undertake lightly with most doubles but with Zoli you can simply order another for a few hundred dollars.
You could buy another Zoli rifle for what just a proper stock would cost on an English double.