AS some of you may recall, I've had regulation problems in the past (and now present) with my Chapuis 9.3mm. I had JJ re-regulate it (on my nickle - as ftondrus noted in another thread, Chapuis isn't stepping up to the plate on warranty issues. At least on anything that might be slightly questionable.) Anyway, the rifle shot fine - for a while (again) and now the left barrel has gone whacko (again). The right barrel prints pretty much where I point it, while the left has all of a sudden decided to print low (2" to 4") and left (2" to 4") at 100 yards. The loads are from the same Nosler box of bullets, the same can of powder, the same package of primers, ane the loads have been assembled using the same tools, so the loads are as identical as I know how to make them. The only thing I can surmise is the source of the trouble may be fore end bedding. The left barrel shows more barrel wear where the forend touches the underside of the barrels, than does the right barrel. I tried placing shims (layers of masking tape for now) under the left barrel channel to attempt to get an upward recoil on that barrel (at least a bit more "up" anyway). It seems to have helped, at least a little bit. I recall when the rifle was new that the fore end latch had to be "helped" to close completely. Adding the shims (6 layers as of now) has nearly duplicated the original latch action. Would shimming the center of the forend and not the barrels provide any help? The barrels would be somewhat free floated with that approach. I've loaded up another 10 rounds of ammunition to see what, if anything, the shims have really added to the solution. I didn't have any regulation loads left to fully check the results last time at the range. Any suggestions to aid me in correcting the problem(s) is gratefully accepted. No, I don't want to send it back to JJ at this time. I'm not convinced that throwing another $750 (regulation plus shipping) will provide any long term solution. At least for now, I'm convinced that there is something "mechanical" wrong with it and it isn't the regulation. The right barrel is behaving normally. Upping the velocity a little bit has also help close up the left-right spread, but the vertical has not been affected by that change at all. DuaneB

Box it up and send it to back to Chapuis! Explain the troubles you have and dont take no for an answer.

Bike Rider

It's not as simple as dropping it off at the Post Office or FedEx and shipping it back to France. That requires export/import permits, etc... Assuming you bought it new, you should talk to the dealer that sold it to you.

I've talked to the dealer - face to face to boot - no empathy there (Wm. Larkin Moore) and no help either. That is why I had JJ re-regulate it in the first place on my nickle as neither Moore NOR Chapuis (I talked to them face to face as well) really gave a hoot even with the targets and rifle in hand for them to look at. The rifle and targets were shown to both less than a year after I received it and it should've been under warranty. If Moore & Chapuis wouldn't do anything at that time, face to face with targets, loads, etc. then I have absolutely no hope that they will do any better now. Hence my cry for help. I'd ask Chapuis for their recommendations, but haven't had much luck with them via internet either so I don't expect they will give me any ideas for sorting it out. Anyway...

Duane,
What does JJ say about the rifle losing regulation? He's the one, if I've understood you, who re-regulated it most recently. Everything I've heard about him suggests a knowledgeable, stand-up guy. Suggest you approach him if you haven't already done so...

Regards, Tim

One other suggestion I would offer up before dropping any more money into the rifle is to have someone else, who is an experienced shooter, fire some round off on your behalf. There are a number of variables for shooting, and I mean no disrespect to your shooting abilities, but seeing what another shooter does with said rifle with said load will either confirm what you are experiencing or not.

577NitroExpress - Yeah, I've thought about that one as well. I used to be a BR shooter (Hunter Benchrest), and am somewhat confident in my abilities. I know when I've pulled a shot, etc. Plus, I don't have any DR shooters anywhere within reasonable driving range (at least to my knowledge), and am not confident that any of the local shooters I have faith in would be comfortable with the recoil levels of the Chapuis. The good shooters I know use 6.5mms and smaller for the most part (varmint shooters). I originally, and after JJ's re-regulation, was able to put 2 ea. rights and lefts into about an inch or slightly more at 100 yards (benchrest) with this rifle. Since I hope to be elk hunting this weekend, I am not putting all my eggs into the 9.3mm basket. I will continue to fool around with it for the next couple of days, and unless I get it sorted out so I know where it's going to put both barrels, then it will stay home. So, today I put together a load for the .358 Win. (BLR, 220 gr. Speer @ ~ 2500 fps) and sighted it in so it's ready to go. I also remounted a scope on the Ruger #1 .338 Win. (225 Nosler @ 2950 fps)and sighted it in as well. I want to take the Ruger to the range one more time when it's totally cold and put a couple of shots down range to be sure it's shooting where I want it to. If it is, then that will be the rifle I take. If not, then the BLR will go hunting with me. The BLR is grouping into an inch and a half or so, and the .338 will put them into an inch or a bit less so I'm reasonably satisfied that I'm holding OK, and that I have a rifle for elk this weekend.

While at the range today I tested the 9.3mm some more with shims under the left barrel. I put 8 layers of masking tape under the left barrel and it appears to have moved the left barrel point of impact up the 4" I need. The right barrel continues to put its shots into an inch or so, right where I point it. Today's testing gives me encouragement. I'm going to load up some more and head out to the range tomorrow, but this time I'm going to shim the left barrel both on the bottom and left sides to see if that will fix both the low & left problems with that barrel. I could fix the horizontal problem with more powder, but I don't really want to load the 9.3mm up that hot. I'm at 2360 fps with the 286 Nosler right now, and that's as hot as I want to go. We'll cross the loading bridge after tomorrows testing. If the shimming works and solves the left barrel problem, then I will make the shimming permanent with epoxy and leave the load alone. I'll report back tomorrow night as to the results. FWIW - DuaneB

I HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE WITH THE DEALER WHO SOLD ME MY CHAPUIS WITH THE SAPWOOD STOCK.

AFTER THEY HAVE YOUR MONEY..... THEY DON'T WANT TO KNOW YOU. AND WILL DO NOTHING TO REMEDY THE PROBLEM

SCREW THE FROGS !

AND THE PEOPLE WHO SELL THEM.

ISN'T IT A TESTIMONY TO THE JUNK THEY ARE WHEN THE "GOD " OF DOUBLE RIFLES THAT ALL THE PRAISE SINGERS SWOON ABOUT CAN'T RE REGULATE THE RIFLE AND MAKE IT STAY REGULATED.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE. MAYBE THEY AREN'T AS GREAT AS THEY MAKE OUT .

Duane

If JJ regulated the rifle and it shot well for hin and you, you should talk to JJ. His knowledge probaly excededs the rest of the posters on this site.

Dave

DuaneB, I think what 577nitro express was getting at,is not your shooting ability, but your technique, with a double rifle!

There are some things you can do with a single barrel rifle, that do not work when shooting a double rifle from a benchrest! I have found, over the years, that the folks who seem to have the most trouble shooting a double rifle properly, are BENCHREST SHOOTERS. That is simply they try to apply benchrest technique to sighting in, or shooting to regulation of a double rifle, Sadly, but truely, those techniques do not work with a double rifle. Thay are designed to be fired off hand, and resting a double rifle is far and away different from that of a single barrel rife!A double rifle must absolutely be allowed to to recoil naturally as if fired from a standing, off hand manner! The recoil flip is what causes the rifle to regulate!

First, and foremost, the shots need to come from a cool barrel set for the first shot,from the RIGHT barrel, followed by the LEFT second barrel immediately, re-load and fire the set again in the same order, as soon as the rifle is reloaded. All four shots fired very quickly.

All double rifles are hunting rifles and have to be shot as they would on a hunt at game, starting with a cool barrel set. Before fireing a second 4 shot grouping let the rifle cool back to ambient temprature, and repeat!

All this is also done with the rifle touching nothing but your face, hands, and shoulder! If you are shooting any groups with a hot barrel set, or resting the rifle dirrectly on anything,
you will not get proper regulation!

............Good luck

Thanks for the input Mac. I appreciate all of the comments.

I'm using sandbags instead of a rest, holding the forend in my hands with my fingers actually touching both barrels, back of hand on the sandbag. The buttstock is snugged into my shoulder with no support for the buttstock of any kind. Both elbows are resting on the bench with the right elbow resting on a folded towel. The same technique has worked with this same rifle in the past (4 in ~ 1 1/2" or so at 100 yards) so I'm not exactly sure where to go next. I havne't gotten back out to the range since elk season opened, but it closed yesterday and so I'm at loose ends for a while. I expect to head on back to the range with identical reloads, shimming the forend for the left barrel as mentioned previously. I've talked to JJ and he suggested I continue to try the shimming. George agreed with me that the barrel solder is not lkely loose as you can hold the mono-bloc in your fingers (lightly) and gently strike the barrels with a stick or whatever and it rings rather than clunks. I truly am baffled by this rifle. Duane

Too bad DuaneB, sometimes we find a double that simply will not follow the rules, and this may be one of those cases, I certainly hope not!

How does it shoot with the irons? What brand, and type of rings and bases are on the rifle for the scope? Is the scope very heavy, and/or mounted very high?

The reasons for these questions is, a scope that is mounted too high,and/or is very heavy, can play hell with regulation. Another thing is the type of attatchments may be letting the scope move about only microscopic amounts, but will result in large movements on the target at 100 yds. I had an O/U 9.3X74R with twist on mounts, that shot perfectly with the irons, and the first couple of rounds with the scope, then was all over the paper at 50 yds. I found that the bases had some adjustment in them, and tightened that up, PROBLEM solved. Three weeks later it did it again, so I trashed the mounts, and just used the irons after that! In that case the scope was very light, and was not mounted too high, though the high, and too heavy mounting doesn't bother an O/U like it does a S/S.

keep us aprised of your progress! Good luck

............

The mounts/rings are Recknagel swing mounts that Chapuis sells for the rifle. I have a Leupold VXIII - 1.5X5 mounted in the rings.

The rifle is very persnickety. The right barrel always prints where pointed/expected whether the barrel is cold or warm, clean or fouled. The left barrel requires barrel fouling of up to 6 or 7 rounds before it settles down and is consistent. Unfortunately, instead of being consistently where it was regulated to be, it is now consistently 4" left and 4" low at 100 yards relative to the right barrel. Just as a curiousity, with no real results expected, I started shimming the left barrel by placing layers of masking tape on the left barrel channel of the forend. The first attempts (up to about 5 layers) didn't show much change in left barrel impact. The right barrel continued to print where it was expected, so I continued to add layers of tape. SOMETHING had to happen, dammit!! At layer #6, the left barrel impact moved up a bit, and as I added layers 7 and 8 it moved up to be parallel (level) with the right barrel, but still 4" left. The rifle was regulated using the Nosler 286 Partition, 70.0 gr H4831, and a magnum primer in S&B brass. Even though the max load shown in the Hornady manual is 70.0 gr., H4831 is pretty predictable without huge pressure jumps as chamber pressure increases. Since 9.3 X 74R pressures aren't particularly high as modern cartridges go, and the rifle is chambered for the 30R, I decided to push the envelope a bit by trying 70.5, 71.0, and 71.5 grains. With the 8 layers in, and 71.0 grains the impact had moved to roughly 2" left of the right barrel. At 71.5, the action didn't open as easily as it had previously (not real hard, but noticably stiffer) so I called a halt to that testing and have gone back to the regulation load, but will shim the forend channel on both the bottom and the left sides. Perhaps this will result in the impact moving both left and up. Since the bottom shims worked, I have hopes that the left shimming will help as well.

SOMETHING "mechanical" has to have changed as the loads are identical, shooter, targets, shooting range, shooting bench, etc. are all the same from day 1 to the present. Since the metal all seems to be tight and the same as original, I suspect forend warpage to be part, if not all of the problem. The right barrel is now snug on the right side of the barrel channel and it didn't useta be that tight, and the left barrel channel has a gap, so that is where I'm suspecting the problem is. We shall see, and I'll report on it as I continue to get more data. DuaneB

Is there any chance the rifle has been dropped muzzle down either in or out of a gun case ?airline travel?

Duane, there is certainly something physically ary here! The shimms working to correct the POI is proof of that fact.

If you have or can borrow a lazer bore sighter, there is a small test you can do to see what is off!

Take the barrel set off the action, and leave the forarm off the barrel set. Now, place the barrel set in a padded vice, by the lumps underneath the chambers. Rest the barrels on the forearm hanger, leaving the forearm off.

Now level the barrel set by placeing a pair of cartridges almost all the way in the chambers, and lay a level across the two cartridges, adjust till the barrels are level at the chamber end.

Now line the iron sights up on an aiming point on a wall, or your fence @ about 25 yds.

Now place the lazer in the muzzle of each barrel, and mark where the light hits on the wall for each barrel. The lazer should point to a place just below, and to the LEFT of the aiming point, for the RIGHT barrel, and vice versa for the left barrel,line of sights crossing, and both lazer points should be in line with each other horizonally, and the same distance to the right, and left of the POA.

I would bet the LEFT barrel will be printing considerably LOWER and more to the RIGHT, by a greater amount than the right barrel is printing on the left of POA!

This indicates the barrels are warped, and likely because something has come loose.

The test for barrel solidity, is to take the barrel set in one hand, and sharply rap the barrels down on the heel of the other hand, with the recieving hand about mid way between the chambers, and the muzzles. With this method you will be able to feel any vibration in the barrels, that can't be heard with the striking with a rawhide hammer or stick!

Your rifle has me puzzled!

quote:

By Wambat
Is there any chance the rifle has been dropped muzzle down either in or out of a gun case ?airline travel?

Wambat, that could very well be, but I'm thinking there is a stress problem with one of the barrels. The barrel not being properly stress relieved. If it turns out the barrels have not comeloose in some way, stress in one barrel is about all I can think of!

Is there any chance the rifle has been dropped muzzle down either in or out of a gun case ?airline travel? - nope
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I'll try the shimming before I do anything else. Quite frankly, I have been underwhelmed by the barrels on both this 9.3 and my 7X65R. For a $5k (nominally) rifle I'd expect quality barrels. Based upon the reputation these rifles have garnered by folks like George Caswell, etc. I figured the first rifle (the 9.3) was an anomaly. Wrong, apparently. Both sets of barrels on these two rifles are rough as hell. To add insult to injury, the 7X65R is off to be re-regulated. You guessed it, the left barrel is shooting left and low! This time right out fof the box. As I put a VXIII - 2.5X8 on it, and it hadn't been regulated at the factory with a scope, Dale Nygaard and I agreed on a price I could pay (equal to the incremental charge Chapuis would've added for regulating the rifle with a scope installed) and I sent the rifle off to Dale to be "fixed" with the scope installed. Nice guy, Dale Nygaard is. I figured originally that I had to be doing something wrong myself for both rifles to show the same fault. However, my original results with the 9.3mm and the effect of the shimming has resulted in my arriving at a different conclusion. I sorta wish the 7mm was in my hands now so I could check the forend fit. I wonder if Chapuis wood is a bit green when put on the rifle and the <30% humidity and heat (up to 110 or so) in this area are drying the forends out enough to casue the worping? Dunno, and I guess it doesn't matter for my rifles as neither of them will be headed back to Chapuis. I'll get them figured out and fixed on this side of the pond. DuaneB

quote:

Originally posted by DuaneB:
Is there any chance the rifle has been dropped muzzle down either in or out of a gun case ?airline travel? - nope
************************************************
I'll try the shimming before I do anything else. Quite frankly, I have been underwhelmed by the barrels on both this 9.3 and my 7X65R. For a $5k (nominally) rifle I'd expect quality barrels. Based upon the reputation these rifles have garnered by folks like George Caswell, etc. I figured the first rifle (the 9.3) was an anomaly. Wrong, apparently. Both sets of barrels on these two rifles are rough as hell. To add insult to injury, the 7X65R is off to be re-regulated. You guessed it, the left barrel is shooting left and low! This time right out fof the box. As I put a VXIII - 2.5X8 on it, and it hadn't been regulated at the factory with a scope, Dale Nygaard and I agreed on a price I could pay (equal to the incremental charge Chapuis would've added for regulating the rifle with a scope installed) and I sent the rifle off to Dale to be "fixed" with the scope installed. Nice guy, Dale Nygaard is. I figured originally that I had to be doing something wrong myself for both rifles to show the same fault. However, my original results with the 9.3mm and the effect of the shimming has resulted in my arriving at a different conclusion. I sorta wish the 7mm was in my hands now so I could check the forend fit. I wonder if Chapuis wood is a bit green when put on the rifle and the <30% humidity and heat (up to 110 or so) in this area are drying the forends out enough to casue the worping? Dunno, and I guess it doesn't matter for my rifles as neither of them will be headed back to Chapuis. I'll get them figured out and fixed on this side of the pond. DuaneB

............Exasperating to be sure!

I am glad I never wasted my time on one! Sounds like Chapuis has a very typical up your, French attitude.