https://auctions.holtsauctione..._value=35&index=view

Has anyone heard of the Manuel de Lopo Caravalo before? Short bigograohy here. https://auctions.holtsauctione..._value=35&index=view

He had great taste in sporting guns.

Colin, WOW!! Some very low estimated prices!! I thought there even might be a Cal possible in the 30 H&H...but it is a Super, not a Flanged Mag...ie take off of 300 H&H...but also very low price. By this, it says even my Jeffrey was not a hot deal??!! Bet bidding might be tempered with the Virus going on??

Say, your second link is same as first??
Cheers,

Their pre auction estimates are always low.

Here is the gentleman’s bio. https://www.holtsauctioneers.c...Lopo_de_Carvalho.pdf

Ol' Lopo had quite good taste in fine guns....and he had a bunch!! Interesting Bio, thanks for posting.

It will be interesting to see if this auction will even go on...and if so what the pricing might be amid all of the fear mongering going on....

Cheers,

Be very careful of Holts, gentlemen. You get what you pay for and very low estimates are the result of something wrong. Trust me; I speak from personal experience.
Cal

We do have a weak Pound working in our favor right now though.

Here are my thoughts on the sale of one of the mentioned gentleman's H&H .500-.465 (lot 1251)at Holt's. The serial number of the DR indicates that it was made in the mid 1920's or there about, and the photo shows it is without side bolsters as expected. It sold at the very low end of the Holt estimate at UKPound 25,000. As per Cal's thoughts of Holts as he expressed above, it appears that if the purchaser was an American that by the time he receives the DR here it will have cost him with shipping handling and thus(at the exchange rate of $1.175 and he pays no value added tax) between $38,000 to $40,000. As the condition of the barrels are unknown to me(such as throat erosion, bore rust and so forth)the price paid is not a fire house sale or bargain basement purchase. Certainly indicative of DR prices since the decline of the market.

WOW!! If you don't think about it, or noodle the values, you don't see it getting that high so quickly!!....but it does with Buyers Commission maybe 10-15%, shipping $1000, Broker $750, and US Federal tax of 10%....I can calculate $38k...!!...then here in WA State, our greedy recent gun laws even adds local sales tax onto Guns... 8-10% more!! GO FIGURE!!

I know where a very nice 1909 Cased H&H Royal 500-465 with all accessories sold for $48k...and another just waiting with no case I think 500-450...$35k....

Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
WOW!! If you don't think about it, or noodle the values, you don't see it getting that high so quickly!!....but it does with Buyers Commission maybe 10-15%, shipping $1000, Broker $750, and US Federal tax of 10%....I can calculate $38k...!!...then here in WA State, our greedy recent gun laws even adds local sales tax onto Guns... 8-10% more!! GO FIGURE!!



I know where a very nice 1909 Cased H&H Royal 500-465 with all accessories sold for $48k...and another just waiting with no case I think 500-450...$35k....

Cheers,

Holt's buyers premium is 25% for prices under UKPounds 100,000

I've bought 4 doubles from Holts. First, as Cal said, beware if you don't know the questions to ask. Always email prior to the auction to find out condition and they will usually send more pics and give a pretty reliable condition report. I always pay Diggory Hadoke to go look at the guns prior to the auction. Dig will give you a great and honest estimate of condition and he will know bidder interest as well. Gives me an indication of where the gavel will fall.

Now, Holts, in the past, advertised one of the doubles I purchased (only bid for the rifle was mine) that it was an extractor gun when, in reality, it was an ejector. Bore condition was actually better than their evaluation. However, they copied the serial number backwards. Yes, backwards (9's and 1's were 6's and 1's). I had to have it entered into my dealers books as it was on the export/import form as they described it.

Another time I was bidding on a Winchester HiWall by phone with Holt's employee whom I had dealt with before. However, I told him I would stop at a certain price and as the auction on this item began he just kept going and I'm yelling at him "No..No..No! He was so happy he got it for me at double the amount I told him. I took care of the matter with one of the directors and did not have to purchase it. That fellow doesn't work there anymore. Do your homework.

Gavin Gardiner has given me very good descriptions in the past and even advised me not to bid on one particular double as he said it was in pretty crappy condition. Most English auction houses, and Rock Island for that matter, DO NOT advertise bore condition so you really have to rely on one of there employees to actually look and give an informed description. Caveat Emptor gentlemen.

Transvaal-
"Holt's buyers premium is 25% for prices under UKPounds 100,000"
That takes the Cake!! WOW!!

I also heard at SCI Convention that the Wm.Larkin Moore Consignment commission is 30%!! I have not confirmed that....that's twice what I know of locally and the big brokers??!!

That becomes more than a MINORITY Partner's Share, EH??!!
Cheers,

To illustrate:
I wanted this British proved express Winchester 1876 in .50-95. I could live with the dark bore and finish loss due to age. When the rifle came to me it was rusted shut--the action would not open. How did they examine the bore? Note the rust on the butt plate. Holts did accept the rifle back (at my expense) as they wanted happy customers even though I "did not ask the right questions to determine condition." When I asked how they examined the bore if the action was so rusted it would not open the reply was "bores are examined by looking at the muzzle end" and not through the bore.
You folks can judge for yourself.

You might be interested to note that of recent Rock Island not takes consignments for sale as "Collector Items"...and refuse to describe bore condition or shotgun wall thickness!!
Cheers,

HOLY SMOKE!!
Tap the same link in original post, the SOLD prices are now posted!! Some real bargains.

Now what happens to unsold items? Will they take offers, or do they roll to next auction??

I should have been paying attention!!

CHEERS,

They usually go into a post auction timed auction and if you "bid" the low estimate, you will probably get it.
Unsold lots from that will either go into the next auction or be offered for outright sale.
I bought a rifle a couple years ago under the low estimate at the post auction sale.

Not a lot there worth chasing now imo. Maybe the H&H if you're looking for a smallbore double.
Under $15K US bid, plus commission, and you're into that rifle for less than $20K US which over here would fly off the shelf.


link here:
https://auctions.holtsauctione...s_value=0&index=view

WOW, I can't imagine a H&H ROYAL in the teens, and the 500-465 selling for GBP25k!!

I wonder if these prices are really indicative of the market, or an anomaly due to the virus and state of investment markets??

It seems to me that gun nuts on Stay Home orders might be looking for something to entertain themselves.... and the market doesn't matter that much??

Thanks for follow up.

CHEERS,

I once ordered a 28 gauge Bernadelli side by side that was a sweet handling little. gem. Does anyone have experience with Bernadelli double rifles?

470, call and throw out a bid that is below the stated low bid price. Ask if they will contact the seller and see if he will take your price. I have been successful doing this with Holts. Cant hurt to ask.

DUTCH, thanks so much!! You don't know how tempted I am.... but I am 76 and no heirs beyond my wife... but some really great friends who are Double Nuts!!
Often my repeat hunting guides want to adopt me and call me DAD!!
FYI, I have contacted Holts and have asked for condition reports on two. They are working from home too these days, so it will be recollection...

Cheers,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 470EDDY:
and no heirs beyond my wife...

I'm in the same boat but 65 this year. No heirs and no family so I'm selling off and playing. I really can't see dying with a safe full of guns and money in the bank. My goal, while I know won't happen but can come perhaps close, is for my blood pressure and bank account to hit zero the same day. This week I sold my 350 no2 Rigby and .500 Watson with strong interest in my .450-400 Gibbs and .450 no2 Lang (all are on my website). Sad to see them go but I can have fun with the proceeds.
Cal

Cal , Eddy

A very good friend of mine, who was much older than I, passed 2 years ago with no kids. I helped his widow as much as i could. That was no small feat in NYC. Luckily she had a rifle license. We were able to transfer all his rifles to her license and sell a few of them. The last few went to a local dealer that specializes in collections and online sale. We were happy with the offer which was a surprise.

A store will usually offer 1/2 value outright or a bit more if they can do consignment.

Cal,
GO SHOOT THAT LION, AND DON'T BRING IT BACK, TOO!!

I need to make a follow up call on Stalking Lion on the Kalahari with my agent....pretty exciting and not exportable...but the price is RIGHT!! I will call you when I have more info, I spoke to outfitter at SCI...may add this to our SELOUS Buffalo October this year or next year??

RIGHT, swallow the last dime with your last breath...leave NOTHING for the TAX MAN!!
Cheers,

YES, she was lucky!!

The sad part is most Executors no nothing about quality guns...when you are in an Estate situation, unless the dealer is your friend that knows your would look down and SMITE him from above...many would take strong advantage of a situation....

Of course today with a falling double market, who wants to take a chance on a buy and get stuck and can't break even!!... viscous circle!!...then of course of your wife finds out what you paid and what they are worth....you might also be DAMNED into the future!!

Evil Thoughts!!
Cheers,

I'm in the same boat regarding disposal. I'm 78, wife died, kids not interested. I reduced my gun collection from 40 to 26, more to go. I've photographed each remaining gun, listed pertinent information and location of parts. Included a list of high end dealers. This should make it easier on my heirs. I will keep some of them as long as I'm healthy enough to enjoy them.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Colin Masters:
Their pre auction estimates are always low.

Here is the gentleman’s bio. https://www.holtsauctioneers.c...Lopo_de_Carvalho.pdf

I noticed their optics on my way in to the db rifles and was surprised they estimated so little for an early Zeiss prismatic scope. Weird and ugly, yes, but Stroebel said such things were very rare and worth $2000-$3000 back in 2008.

Still, antiques don't always appreciate and the coronavirus recession certainly won't help.

This has been an eye opening and intriguing topic for me. I would like to get a nice double rifle, but I am not jumping in at the $100K price point!

The concept of easing into a used double 9.3x74 seems sensible.

You can get several nice doubles for less than $20K right now. A few more at $30K.

The auctions are where the deals are, but the quality and descriptions are all over the place.

I just listed my .450 No. 2 cased Thomas Bland hammer double with Royal provenance on Guns International. Will get it on here this week. trying to thin out the herd as well. No children and 65. Don't want my wife burdened. Keeping my BPE doubles and single-shots for the time being.

Very Nice Piece!!....same situation though!!
Cheers,

That Heym 500 went for $5500.

I'll have to start watching HOlts for modern Germany double rifles.

They have them periodically. When things are back to normal email them and they will take more photos and give you a pretty accurate (within reason) bore condition etc... but it may take a few weeks so inquire as early as possible. I have Diggory Hadoke look at anything I'm interested in and then he gives me the really accurate report and will tell you if it is a dog and not to buy. He will also know the bidding history or interest from other collectors to give you an idea of what you may be in for as to bidding.

quote:

WOW, I can't imagine a H&H ROYAL in the teens, and the 500-465 selling for GBP25k!!

Can you send me the direkt link please?
I cant find it on "past auctions":
Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Bockhunter:

quote:

WOW, I can't imagine a H&H ROYAL in the teens, and the 500-465 selling for GBP25k!!

Can you send me the direkt link please?
I cant find it on "past auctions":
Thank you.

This one sold for 25K GBP
If that was the hammer price it ended up more like 30K

https://auctions.holtsauctione...o=++147775&saletype=

HOLTS Buyer's commission is 25%, and GBP to US $ is 25%... so with air shipping, insurance, brokers fees, local freight and clearance...adds up quick.... actually real transaction prices we are seeing here now....not asking, SELLING!!

A new world in Brit doubles!! I don't think it is virus pricing.... it's sign of the times. ...

Cheers

Good to know.

25% commission to the buyer, never heard of it switched to the buyer.

That is a rough pill to swallow.

Makes a $5500 Heym a $6900 Heym. There are Kreighoff's on Guns International for only a couple thousands more.

I guess I'll watch and see they pops up.

I'd be really happy with a mid-caliber 400 to 470 Heym for $9000 out the door.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 470EDDY:


I'm in the same boat but 65 this year. No heirs and no family so I'm selling off and playing. I really can't see dying with a safe full of guns and money in the bank.
Cal

Dad, how could you forget about me????

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 470EDDY:


I'm in the same boat but 65 this year. No heirs and no family so I'm selling off and playing. I really can't see dying with a safe full of guns and money in the bank.
Cal

Dad, how could you forget about me????

I'm truly sorry for the memory slip. Are you the son I fathered with Janet Reno?
C

Well, Cal. I use to have all the respect in the world for you but...but...Janet "Hey Fella" Reno???? Now, just thinking of that "picture" precludes me from having sex for at least...10 minutes!

Come on now Cal, uh I mean, Dad, surely you remember, or have you fired your 4-bore and 600 a bit too much? Better send them to me for the sake of your health.

I'll help with the story Mum always told me. It was the summer of '68 (I was born early 69), you were a precocious 13 year old Democrat Party student representative on a social studies field trip to the DNC convention in Chicago. Mom was a young police officer trying to hold back the tide of filthy hippies. After teargassing you at a protest, your eyes met, and well, one thing lead to another....

Back on topic, did anyone else check out the 8-bore BOLT action that went for 850? If it wasn't for the hassle of importing I was tempted to bid on that one just for the novelty of the action design. At almost 18lb I'd think it would be pleasant to shoot and a unique turkey gun for sure.


https://auctions.holtsauctione...o=++150012&saletype=

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 470EDDY:


I'm in the same boat but 65 this year. No heirs and no family so I'm selling off and playing. I really can't see dying with a safe full of guns and money in the bank.
Cal

Dad, how could you forget about me????

I'm truly sorry for the memory slip. Are you the son I fathered with Janet Reno?
C

Funny stuff!