...was it stated on the box for a time that they made the switch fully to both? I've seen nitro cellulose in print, and non-corrosive ignition in print, but never the two together. Of course nothing of either is on the most modern boxes, boxer and modern powder a given. But did one switch precede the other or vice versa, and will you find old ammo that is cordite/boxer (box marked non-corrosive only) or berdan/smokeless powder (marked nitro cellulose only).

Here is some I am selling. Clearly marked Cordite AND Nitro Cellulose. If you have the date code, the dates read 25 RS and 12 MU

NC reads 17 QLS

Frank,

How much for the .470s?

Yeah Frank, that answers it. They were marked accordingly, and they went boxer before going to smokeless.

Never mind Frank, found your ad and sent you a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Yeah Frank, that answers it. They were marked accordingly, and they went boxer before going to smokeless.

No not necessarily. I have some Kynoch ammo marked non-corrosive and a warning that "rifles sighted for cordite should be re-zeroed."
These cartridges do contain 75grs Nobels nitro powder but are Berdan primed.

Frank where would you find the date coding, I'm interested in dating my Kynoch 404J ammo which has the code 30 H L. Also has cost ink stamped on packets of $3.50. Was purchased and brought back from Rhodesia in the late 70's. Assume it was US$ unless Rhodesia used $ back then?

Would post a couple of pictures of the Kynoch boxes but kids used up all the broadband allowance for the month so just waiting until tomorrow when it resets for another 20GB.

Thx. I don't know all about berdan, I assumed going non corrosive meant going boxer. But they only changed the ignition chemical. Thx again for clearing that up.

Actually is there data table for the date stamps anywhere? I didn't notice one at Kynoch but will look again. They are codes, yes?

Frank,

Just sent you another PM.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Actually is there data table for the date stamps anywhere? I didn't notice one at Kynoch but will look again. They are codes, yes?

Searched and found an article and tables on Kynoch ammo box codes. Go to:

www.vintagers.org.au/newsletter/NEWSLETTER07.pdf

Sorry that link didn't work. I had posted the codes a long while back but cannot find it now. I will keep looking.

Frank

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Martinez:
Sorry that link didn't work. I had posted the codes a long while back but cannot find it now. I will keep looking.

Frank

Sorry Frank
I've re-posted the link, worked okay when I opened from here. Might be some trick posting links on AR? Anyway just type in URL and go to the page if the link doesn't work directly. Quite a good article on the codes.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Martinez:
Sorry that link didn't work. I had posted the codes a long while back but cannot find it now. I will keep looking.

Frank

Sorry Frank
I've re-posted the link, worked okay when I opened from here. Might be some trick posting links on AR? Anyway just type in URL and go to the page if the link doesn't work directly. Quite a good article on the codes.

That was educational. Thanks for finding that.

So ....

25 R S IMI: 25 November 1970

17 Q L/S ICI: 17 October 1963 (?)

The article said there is supposedly just one second letter, an L or an S in this case but doesn't address something like L/S. Probably not 1937 because of the non-corrosive primers.

To avoid confusion, Cordite was smokeless, as is nitro-cellulose.

It still doesn't answer the question of when was the switch from Cordite to nitro-cellulose.

Nor does it answer the question of when the switch to non-corrosive primers occurred.

Exactly, Will. Again, I was thinking on the fly. By smokeless, of course I meant nitro cellulose. I'll edit so as not to confuse those interested who come along.

Non-mercuric , non-corrosive are the primers ! Cordite is a NC powder , if you shoot one it smell like this ! I do that sometimes because i have a lot of old Kynoch ammunition caliber 577NE . Imperial chemical from 1926 change 1962 to Imperial metal . I dont know boxer brass loaded with cordite . The last cartridge loaded with cordite that i know was the 303 British 1973 ! I am sorry that we cannot have cordite loads today for our big bore cartridges ! The low burning powders are a poor compromise for reloading !

I have a box of .450/.400 3 1/4" that has a sticker on it that says non-corrosive primers. It is from 1966. That has to be close. 1966 or a bit before as they apparently were using old boxes that were not printed with the non-corrosive primer info.

Great info. Thanks.

Now some bright wizard should just call Kynamco tomorrow and ask them.

quote:

Originally posted by grandveneur:
Non-mercuric , non-corrosive are the primers ! Cordite is a NC powder , if you shoot one it smell like this ! I do that sometimes because i have a lot of old Kynoch ammunition caliber 577NE . Imperial chemical from 1926 change 1962 to Imperial metal . I dont know boxer brass loaded with cordite . The last cartridge loaded with cordite that i know was the 303 British 1973 ! I am sorry that we cannot have cordite loads today for our big bore cartridges ! The low burning powders are a poor compromise for reloading !

I'm clear on the primer chemical. Was not clear on the type of primer used after the switch to non corrosive.

From the marking it appears that Kynoch loaded with cordite is marked "Cordite", and when they switched to loose powder marking stated "Nitro Cellulose". Cordite is not a powder. It's guncotton soaked in nitroglycerine, producing a stick/cord.

I also think modern powders are fine. I've shot my H4831 handloads SP/FMJ and modern factory ammo from Kynoch, Norma and Federal thru three modern 470s, Chapuis, Heym and Verney-Carron/Demas. The Chapuis shot well enough, the gun didn't fit me well. The Heym was finicky, probably regulated with Romey I was told. The V-C rifle was a tack driver. It was regulated on Norma PH and it digested all ammo I fed it without as much as a fart.

I just don't buy it that modern loose powders are no good for doubles. Even the old rifles, Seyfried worked out the cordite loads converting to Reloader 15. I DO have a gripe that apparently Reloader powder varies from batch to batch, disturbing. H4831, regular and short cut, worked well for.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I have a box of .450/.400 3 1/4" that has a sticker on it that says non-corrosive primers. It is from 1966.

Bill,

Are you sure that isn't "1866"? Leftover from one of your hunts?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I have a box of .450/.400 3 1/4" that has a sticker on it that says non-corrosive primers. It is from 1966.

Bill,

Are you sure that isn't "1866"? Leftover from one of your hunts?

Could be!

quote:

From the marking it appears that Kynoch loaded with cordite is marked "Cordite", and when they switched to loose powder marking stated "Nitro Cellulose".

It is so confusing. I have a small pile of ammo from the fifties that are NOT MARKED as Cordite or any primer info.

These are apparently Cordite. My guess is that in some transition period between Cordite ammo and nitro-cellulose ammo both were being made, and the boxes so marked, so that the hunter had his pick (??).

After seeing this thread, I checked my Kynoch .470 NE - all of which is loaded with solid bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The article said there is supposedly just one second letter, an L or an S in this case but doesn't address something like L/S.

My boxes are all marked like that, with the first letter separated by a forward slash from a second letter - which is also an "S".

[As it turns out (per eagle27's post below) the "S" apparently indicates that the ammo is loaded with steel jacketed bullets.]

28 M O / S

28 June 1966 / Steel Jacketed Bullets

and

21 M M / S

21 June 1964 / Steel Jacketed Bullets

They're also marked "Cordite," "Non-Mercuric, Non-Corrosive Caps."

They also have the legend "Metal Covered Solid Bullet 500 Grains" and "Strengthened Coated Steel Bullet Envelopes" on the front of the boxes.

On the back of the boxes, although it states that the ammo was made by IMI (the legend is the same as that on Frank's box of .470), each box has the ICI seal printed right below that statement.

The boxes have also been stamped on the back with a rubber stamp reading: "WARNING: Keep out of the reach of children."

They are all Berdan primed.

Just posted a copy of the date code article. Forgot to mention that in searching for this I came across another article which made the point that the /S in a date code on some boxes apparently stands for steel jacket.

Thank's for the code !

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Forgot to mention that in searching for this I came across another article which made the point that the /S in a date code on some boxes apparently stands for steel jacket.

That is consistent with my Kynoch box markings and the ammunition itself - it's all loaded with steel jacketed solid bullets.

I have edited my earlier post accordingly.

It will be interesting to find out (if such information is available) when the switch was made from Cordite and from Berdan primers.

I'm a little confused here. Are we talking about them switching to NC from Cordite? If that is the case the pics of the boxes that Frank posted appear to show just the opposite as the cordite marked box dates to 1970 whilst the NC dates to 1963 and I have a box of 470s that I bought from Frank that are marked as being loaded with cordite and date to 1972, the last year of production, apparently.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
I'm a little confused here. Are we talking about them switching to NC from Cordite? If that is the case the pics of the boxes that Frank posted appear to show just the opposite as the cordite marked box dates to 1970 whilst the NC dates to 1963 and I have a box of 470s that I bought from Frank that are marked as being loaded with cordite and date to 1972, the last year of production, apparently.

I think the Kynoch lettering system repeated itself at one stage.

That is from vague memory but would answer your question.

Later Kynoch was, of course, made by Norma and UK assembled. The boxes will be marked "Made in England from Swedish Components". Boxer primed Kynoch is usually Norma made cases FWIW.

I've used 455 Webley ammunition that goes from cordite, to non-cordite (in commercial yellow and red boxes marked as "K66 6Z" on the headstamp) to large Boxer primer type Norma made cases.

Again FWIW Kynoch Berdan primers, as stated, could be either at one time corrosive or at a later time non-corrosive.

And don't forget that both 455 Mk 6 and 303 Mk 7 military contract ammunition was loaded with non-cordite in the 1940s.

When I shot 303 in the 1970s I think that we never saw anything from Kynoch that wasn't non-cordite "7Z" dated after 1969 or maybe 1966?

As far as Greenwood and Batley military contract 303 I think that 1954 was the last year of cordite and that from 1955 it was all "7Z"?

It is a very long time since I collected 303 but FWIW at one time I could have told you the final use of cordite in that ammunition to the exact year.

So my "punt" as a Brit is 1966 for the final use of cordite FWIW. Although as noted with the military 455 and 303 (and 9mm and 380) ammunition cordite and non-cordite was pretty much being produced at the same time from the 1940s onwards.

Indeed there used to be a "scramble" for cordite ammunition by those 303 shooters whose rifles had always used cordite as the wear pattern to the rifling rendered them less accurate with non-cordite.

Or was it the other way around?

I can't remember but certainly there was this correctly held belief that if you had always shot one propellant in your 303 you should not shoot the other as the wear pattern rendered bullets with the other propellant less accurate. Indeed Vickers MG barrels that had seen substantial cordite use where deemed to be never used for overhead fire with non-cordite loaded rounds.

Except if you did it in one particular order which was if you used non-cordite first you could still get some extra useful life out of the barrel using cordite after it ceased to be accurate with non-cordite?

It was all a long time ago. And those that told me it all are now long dead.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
I'm a little confused here. Are we talking about them switching to NC from Cordite? If that is the case the pics of the boxes that Frank posted appear to show just the opposite as the cordite marked box dates to 1970 whilst the NC dates to 1963 and I have a box of 470s that I bought from Frank that are marked as being loaded with cordite and date to 1972, the last year of production, apparently.

I think the Kynoch lettering system repeated itself at one stage.

That is from vague memory but would answer your question.

Yes, the numbering system did repeat. However, the box that I am looking at is labeled as being produced by Imperial Metal Industries which would seem to indicate its being loaded sometime after 1963 with the date code pointing towards 1972, yet is is marked "Cordite" and not "Nitro-Cellulose" which is counter to what one would expect. That is what I find confusing.

Thanks, enfieldspares. Much appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Thanks, enfieldspares. Much appreciated.

Yes, and enfieldspares is lending credo to those who long for a modern cordite load for their rifles that were regulated on it. My pushback on the use of cordite in modern loads is based modern rifles being regulated on modern powders. But, I sympathize with the vintage double owner who can't find a decent modern powder load, with which his rifle was NOT regulated. I ran into this with a Heym 470, albeit a modern rifle regulated with modern powder. Finicky double rifles are a bitch, regardless on which propellant they are regulated. I too was stubborn, trying many handloads, instead of having the rifle reregulated. So again, I sympathize with same said vintage DR owners, who balk at having to potentially reregulate and wish that someone would manufacture some cordite.

Now I read somewhere...and please don't go out and duplicate any loads using this information...that weight for weight a charge of Du Pont 3031 was meant to duplicate the same weight charge of cordite.

But you do this at you own risk! I've never done it - I've never used Du Pont 3031 - and I don't know any who did this here in GB.

So it may well all be something that is a lot of horse manure. Particulalry as there were severla kinds of cordite in both solid stick and hollow stick form.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Now I read somewhere...and please don't go out and duplicate any loads using this information...that weight for weight a charge of Du Pont 3031 was meant to duplicate the same weight charge of cordite.

But you do this at you own risk! I've never done it - I've never used Du Pont 3031 - and I don't know any who did this here in GB.

So it may well all be something that is a lot of horse manure. Particulalry as there were severla kinds of cordite in both solid stick and hollow stick form.

Not recommended at all, in large cases like .470 NE that powder requires about a half a pillow's worth of dacron stuffing to work properly, much better to go with a slower powder.

As per the coding article I published above, Kynoch did start the alphabet dating sequence over again for the year of manufacture from 1952.

We should be mindful that Kynoch most likely did not make the transition from cordite to Nobels powder at the same time for all cartridges. In fact there may have been some cartridges that never made the transition before Kynoch closed down.

Obviously in making the change from cordite to Nobels powder there would have had to be a lot of load development done for double rifle ammo in order to maintain regulation.
The packets of 404 Jeffery I have dating from 1963 do highlight the possible effect of the transition from cordite on the POI of a rifle and I have seen in print that this could be anything up to an 8" or so. Not such an issue with bolt actions to re-sight the rifle but I imagine even that would be a nuisance where you would have to be careful that cordite and Nobels charged cartridges did not get mixed.

Hi,
This Kynoch .404 Jeffery ammunition was made by Norma in Sweden in the 1960ts. Norma also loaded other calibers for Kynoch, such as 6,5x54MS, .303 among others.

The code says; 7 MO / S wich should mean
June 1966, but was stands '/ S' for?
Perhaps S for Sweden?

Husky

Referring to my earlier post. /S means steel jacketed. I found this information from another source from where I had found the article on dating Kynoch ammo boxes.

eagle 27,
thanks!
Should have read all posts before posting my question -just like so many other dear fellows at AR

As I'm always interested retaining interesting info such as the article on interpreting the Kynoch date codes on their ammo packets, I spent a bit of time tidying up the article and adding in the extra little bits of info as well as making use of some of the photos posted here as examples. Happy to email this revised version to anyone that PMs me.

In doing this I did take another look at Frank's first post photos and realised that his .470" ammo is indeed 1970 vintage confirmed by the IMI manufacture.
While the labelling states cordite loaded, the packet also says it is loaded with a modified propellant which may mean the high velocity flat strip cordite (instead of the normal tubular type) and rather than nitro-cellulose powder which seems to have meant the Nobels range of granular powders.

Unless of course, as has been suggested, Kynoch did use cordite labeled boxes containing ammo loaded with Nobels powder. I suppose the ammo is too collectable to pull bullets to confirm?