Hi all! Wanted to introduce myself to everyone (yes, even Shootaway)Have been lurking on this site for over a year and absorbing all of your considerable knowledge of the care and feeding of the finest hunting implement ever devised-the Double Rifle! Indeed, I can even quote Mac's Theory of Regulation by heart! And totally agree with it,BTW. Sadly, my meager budget only allows for the purchase of a Baikal and (heaven help us) a new-from-the-new-U.S. distributor Sabatti 92 classic. Both are in the unfavorable 45-70 chambering, but the way I load them, they should be called a .450 2.5 N.E.Anyway, would love to chat with y'all on all things double. BTW, anyone near Washington, Pa. I mistakenly put south eastern in my register instead of south western. Oh well,at least I know a male buff from a female.

Welcome.
Nothing wrong with shooting Baikals and Sabattis, in spite of what you read; I have them both. What is important is that you are shooting double rifles.
Your 45-70 would be a .450 2.1 inch NE.

You are correct,Sir. I was using COL as my reference to the 2.5. I guess I consider the 45-70 as it was originally designed-a 4 or 500 gr. slug lumbering along at BP velocities. I know what those slugs have done throughout history, but I am a recoil junkie. Hard to believe a 300 or 350 jacketed at 2100 or so is the same caliber, but I don,t want to reawaken that old "why isn't it a DG cartridge" thread.(have a story to tell about that, one day)

DPCD-do you have a 45-70 sabatti? If so, what load have you found to "shoot to the regulation built into it"(as the Pontiff says). I'm having a little trouble with 300,350,& 500 grain lead reloads.

I do not have a 45-70 Sabatti; I have a .500 NE, and have owned two 450 NEs, all of which shot into 2 inches at 50 yards. I have a 30-06 Baikal, which shoots into less than an inch, and I have a 45-70 Baikal which I have never fired; I will re-barrel it to something else. I have another 45-70 baikal that I built. I use 400 grain bullets in it with 48 grains of 3031.
It could be your lead bullets; not made to go as fast as you might need for regulation; how are the individual barrel groups?

A little background first, if I may. Don,t want to come off as a "can't settle on one bullet weight" yoyo. Have had 3 baikals-first two were bad-REAL early production,probably. Second one keyholed any bullet,any weight from left barrel. They went away. Present one "called to me" at gun shop while I was trading a BFR in 45-70 (couldn't get good velocity with 500 grain bullets so had to go. This Baikal will put 500 grain flat nose LB 1.5 inches apart at 50 yds consistently with 30 gr IMR-4198. With the stock being what it is, this load is a bit of a thumper at both ends-only 1377 FPS but so consistent I dont't wanna mess with it. Haven't tried anything lighter. Wanted more thump from the Sabatti than the pipsqueak recoil of the above loads, so picked up the lighter slugs to try. Didn't want to waste money on Hornady Leverrevolution ammo (what the Sabatti weas regulated with) because of Hornady"s shorter brass for future use, so duplicated factory load with Hornady 300 JHP. This Sabatti puts my load-6 shots-RL,RL,RL into 13/4 to 2 inch groups at 50 yards.High praise for the new gen batch of IFG Sabattis.Havent been able to duplicate this with lead though.

You are on the right track; need to try some harder lead bullets. Or no lead.

I have no problems with leading. Have pushed the 300 gr. lesd at 2280 with 52 gr. IMR 4198. Have used this npowder in 45-70 all my life, in various Sharps and NEF rifles and really believe there is a good load in that powder somewhere. 49 grains with the JHP's at 2090 is supposed to be at 24000 CUP and the 52 gr charge is a little frightening (treading on .458 territory). Don't want to beat the gun up (most expensive thing I've ever bought that I can't sleep with or drive) and I like to shoot a lot. Work in progess.Thanks for your input.

Yep, used a ton of 4198 in 45-70s too. Even if you aren't getting leading, that doesn't mean the bullets are flying. If you can regulate it with 300 grain jacketed bullets, then there is something going on with the lead ones, obviously.

Are your lead bullets gas checked?
Peter

no these bullets aren't gas checked. Using the same load for the 300 gr lead that I used for the JHP's, the groups opened up from 2 inches to 6 inches. This indicated that I needed to speed them up, but I'm concerned about stressing the gun. 52 grains is probably pushing 30000 cup or so, according to my Lyman 49th edition

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Welcome . . . What is important is that you are shooting double rifles.

+1, jump right in. I am sure we can benefit from your insights just as you have from those of others.

Do you mean your composite groups open up to 6 inches? If so, then it is the bullets that can't take the stress. If you are getting two good individual barrel groups that are crossing, 6 inches apart, then you need more recoil; use a slower powder, or heavier bullet. Rather than trying to increase velocity if you are worried about pressure.
If you are getting two good groups, 6 inches apart and they are not crossing, then you have too much muzzle flip/recoil and more velocity might work; might not.
If your rifle regulates with jacketed bullets; use those.
It ain't easy; that's why we like them.

I guess I figure that since the lead bullets are lead (duh) instead of jacketed they slip thru the bore easier. This would lower the pressure/velocity/recoil which would mean speed em up (they aren,t crossing.I,m just leery of getting up in the pressure limits. I would like to try the 350 lbt over 49 gr. I-4198 but can,t find any pressure data for that load. If I,m getting 6 inches with 300 gr, then 350's might bring it in. Any ideas on pressure with that load, anyone?

It don't totally work that way. once a copper bullet is grooved into the rifling, it is fairly easy to push out. But lead bullets do give lower pressures,but you might be exceeding their ability to stand the velocity. I would go to 3031 if you want to increase the powder charge; 49 grains of 4198 is a heavy load. I will look it up later for you.
Still, if you say that 300 jacketed shoots into 2 inches, then just those. A heavier bullet might make it worse due to heavier recoil and muzzle flip, which are a major component of regulation anyway. Or might not.

Appreciate the input. According to my Lyman 49th, 49 gr. imr-4198/300 JHP generates 24000 CUP. Cases fall out on tip-up, but then it's only 24000. Will try this load again tomorrow with 300 gr. lead just to double check. Sorry if this is a double post. My computer went nuts and I had to re-post.