I found a new Demas .470NE for sale at one of the local gunshops.
It is a scalloped boxlock, I gather from the little bit of info I can find on the internet that the designer @ Demas used to work for Chapuis, and has designed the demas action with triple underhooks. I have some pictures but am not smart enough to post them. The wood seems decent, it has hand engraving, scope mounts already in place, single leaf sites, ejectors and double triggers.
I'm just trying to find out what it is worth, I cannot seem to locate another one on the internet for sale anywhere.
thanks
Notlim

Here is their site - Paul Demas

Contact:
Tél. 04 77 81 01 21
Fax. 04 77 81 34 37
e-mail: demas@demas.fr

thanks Mouse

I found their site, its just not much help in finding out a current north american price.

quote:

Originally posted by notlim:
I found a new Demas .470NE for sale at one of the local gunshops.
It is a scalloped boxlock, I gather from the little bit of info I can find on the internet that the designer @ Demas used to work for Chapuis, and has designed the demas action with triple underhooks. I have some pictures but am not smart enough to post them. The wood seems decent, it has hand engraving, scope mounts already in place, single leaf sites, ejectors and double triggers.
I'm just trying to find out what it is worth, I cannot seem to locate another one on the internet for sale anywhere.
thanks
Notlim

One thing you might think about is, these rifles have Mono-Block barrels. There is nothing wrong with that fact, IN FACT, I find Mono-Block barrels sets to be stronger than Chopper lump barrels, but from a selling point,it should effect price downward!

They are good looking rifles, and I like the triple lock-up!

At or around $10,000 would be fair. I have a pal that has one coming (470 Demas), and it was roughly at that price (I think he might of gaotten a pretty good deal from his importer, so it may be more where you found one). Supposed to be very well balanced attractive rifles that are hand made. Just type "free picture hosting" into google and upload your pics from your computer onto the site. Then download them off the site and onto the forum. Good luck, and we'd love to see pics.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by notlim:
I found a new Demas .470NE for sale at one of the local gunshops.
It is a scalloped boxlock, I gather from the little bit of info I can find on the internet that the designer @ Demas used to work for Chapuis, and has designed the demas action with triple underhooks. I have some pictures but am not smart enough to post them. The wood seems decent, it has hand engraving, scope mounts already in place, single leaf sites, ejectors and double triggers.
I'm just trying to find out what it is worth, I cannot seem to locate another one on the internet for sale anywhere.
thanks
Notlim

One thing you might think about is, these rifles have Mono-Block barrels. There is nothing wrong with that fact, IN FACT, I find Mono-Block barrels sets to be stronger than Chopper lump barrels, but from a selling point,it should effect price downward!

They are good looking rifles, and I like the triple lock-up!

I find this confusing. I'm under the impression that Demas builds chopper lump barrels, at least for big bore SxS rifles. In fact when the importer explored having a 2nd set of barrels (shotgun) fit to a big bore double rifle, the makers representative made it plain, it must be understood, that both sets of barrels would be mono-blocked (as opposed to chopper lump), that's the only way Demas makes multi barrel guns. Or maybe that's how he does it at that price point. Also, I don't know a whole lot about doubles but I thought the general belief was that chopper lump was the stronger of the two.

I think I see both types being made in the Demas factory video but I can't be sure.

www.griffinhowe.com has had their most recent double rifles built

with their trade marked name and address: GRIFFIN AND HOWE -

NEW YORK by Verney Carron who bought up Demas. They sold them

@ $15,000 if I recall. They are always a bit high on any new product

they sell as they are in high end areas at both their show room's

locations.

check with ken buch from kebcollc.com

i think he is importing some demas double rifles

macd 27

are you smoking that tumbleweed again ?

chopper lump barrels are BRAZED together

monoblocks have the barrels SOLDERED into them

splain to me pls how solder can be stronger than brazing ????

this must be some new technology that only works in texas maybe ??

sorry Mac, i think you are dead wrong on this one.

for your punishment i'll let you buy me a drink when next we meet ,

cheers, tom

Heard from Ken on this one, will expand on it after I've spoken with him. Demas barrels are solid but not chopper lump. The only mono-blocks being the multi barrel sets.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
www.griffinhowe.com has had their most recent double rifles built

with their trade marked name and address: GRIFFIN AND HOWE -

NEW YORK by Verney Carron who bought up Demas. They sold them

@ $15,000 if I recall. They are always a bit high on any new product

they sell as they are in high end areas at both their show room's

locations.

Question is; was it really too high? I don't think that it was. Those rifles were pimped out and the fit and finish outstanding. If they were a known player $15K would be reasonable, even a bargain. But they sre unknown here and allowing for that it was a fair price. I saw and handled these rifles at the HSC show, went there just to see them. As I've said, I'm no expert, far from it, but during all this time I've been shopping I'd handled and inspected dozens of rifles. At the show I was able to walk away from these Demas rifles straight to the H&H table and I found the Demas guns not lacking in the least, given what they are. With my sense memory fresh I'd do the same by going straight to a Chapuis & Merkel. Apples and oranges, NO comparison. The only gun that fared well against the Demas (in $10-16K range) in my time at show was the Heym, in form, in quality and in function. But not in aesthetics, no way in my book, maybe yes for others. At this price point Heyms are attractive but plain, not my style. The higher priced Heyms, yes. So all along I've descrobed these rifles as the quality of a Heym with old English beauty for the price of a Chapuis or Merkel. Given the dollar and other market factors these guns will cost more in the future and the used ones won't go down IMO.

If nothing else - wood on that Eloge Entaillé is just the nicest I have ever seen .

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
macd 27

are you smoking that tumbleweed again ?

chopper lump barrels are BRAZED together

monoblocks have the barrels SOLDERED into them

splain to me pls how solder can be stronger than brazing ????

this must be some new technology that only works in texas maybe ??

sorry Mac, i think you are dead wrong on this one.

for your punishment i'll let you buy me a drink when next we meet ,

cheers, tom

In the first place the barrels are not simply soldered into a SOLID mono-block, they are threaded into the block, and then sweat soldered in. The barrels are threaded into the front 1" of the block, with the shank a press fit to the breech, exactly the same way a barrel is threaded into a bolt rifle action.

The block being one solid machined piece,is not soldered, or brazed together, but simply fitted to the action, and then the barrels are fitted to the block by threading, AND soldering. How do your figure a solid piece of steel is weaker that two pieces of steel brazed together? Addtionally the mono-block cna be hardened seperate from the barrels, giveing the mateing surfaces of the mono-block a much harder surfaces that when the lump is part of the barrels, while still leaving the barrels elastic to better withstand the chamber pressures of fire acrtridges in them!

Chopper lumps only cost more because there is more hand fitting of two adtional surfaces, and the only advantage, is the over all width can be slightly narrower. The cost has nothing to do with the chopper lump being stronger!

SORRY BUT YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!

Make my drink a cup of coffee!

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Heard from Ken on this one, will expand on it after I've spoken with him. Demas barrels are solid but not chopper lump. The only mono-blocks being the multi barrel sets.

If you go to thier web-site the joint is plain to see that they are Mono-Block barrels, and the pictures are only of their double rifles, no mention of multiple barrel sets.

I SEE NOW IN ANOTHER PART OF THE WEB-SITE that there are some barrel sets, that are not mono-block, but it can't be seen what they are.

http://www.demas.fr/pages-fr/gamme-azure-02.htm
Contact:
Tél. 04 77 81 01 21
Fax. 04 77 81 34 37
e-mail: demas@demas.fr


If they are not mono-block, and are not chopper lumps, then they have to be either DOVETAIL LUMPS, or PLATFORM LUMPS, neither of which are stronger than mono-block

I went back to their web-site and went through the pictures, and if you click on the pictures it will let you magnify the picture, and the barrels that are not mono-bolck, are PLATFORM barrel sets! This means the under lumps are cut from one solid piece,in this case with three sets of lumps on the bottom of the platform block, and the top of that block forms two troughs that the barrel butts are soldered, or brazed into, and to each other, this is also called SHOE-LUMP barrel sets. This is the way HEYM, and MERKEL barrels are made, except for the treditional single row of lumps, and bites!

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
I find this confusing. I'm under the impression that Demas builds chopper lump barrels, at least for big bore SxS rifles. In fact when the importer explored having a 2nd set of barrels (shotgun) fit to a big bore double rifle, the makers representative made it plain, it must be understood, that both sets of barrels would be mono-blocked (as opposed to chopper lump), that's the only way Demas makes multi barrel guns. Or maybe that's how he does it at that price point. Also, I don't know a whole lot about doubles but I thought the general belief was that chopper lump was the stronger of the two.

If a Demas can be purchased for $10K, then the barrels aren't chopper-lump. Chopper-lump blanks alone are 4000+ Euro. Just looking at the triple-hook design confirms this, as it wouldn't be possible with conventional chopper-lump blanks.

Those that he described as "solid, but not chopper-lump" are shoe-lump (the lumps, extensions, etc., are brazed to the barrels), just like the Chapuis. The lumps and extensions of chopper-lump blanks are integral to the barrels.

I both agree and disagree with Mac about mono-bloc. The lumps are integral to the block, not brazed, making mono-bloc quite strong. The advantage to mono-bloc is that it's cheap. However, it's doubtful that it's as strong as chopper-lump. It's the cheapest method of making multi-barrel guns, and a great many have been made with this method that are beneath cheap. On double guns of this price point, shotgun or rifle, non-seamless mono-bloc barrel construction is simply unacceptable given today's technology, but many makers aren't willing to go the extra mile.

I suppose I could be missing somebody, but I don't know of anyone that is still using dovetail lump construction.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

SHOE-LUMP!! That's it! Just couldn't damn well remember it. I'm OK with that. I knew I wasn't getting an H&H. This is the way of all those in the entry level category. As my choices were always limited to Merkel, Chapuis, Heym and Demas. I'll stick with the way I put it before. A hand made gun, quality of a Heym with the aesthetics of I'd say, a Dumoulin.

Speaking of Dumoulin, can someone explain to me THEIR way of joining the barrels?

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
I'll stick with the way I put it before. A hand made gun, quality of a Heym with the aesthetics of I'd say, a Dumoulin.

Nothing is free. The Demas may be a nice rifle, but I know of nothing below the Heym in price that approaches it in build quality. That's why they're more expensive (and they're cheaper in the US than they are in Europe). Heym doesn't use one-piece ribs and cast parts like Chapuis and Demas do.

quote:

Speaking of Dumoulin, can someone explain to me THEIR way of joining the barrels?

They offer both "cruciform cradle" (shoe-lump) and chopper-lump. I imagine that they're priced according to which is ordered.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I think I priced what was a cruciform cradle, as that's the term I was searching for, at $30K. I thought it to be high. The "Pionnier", same as at Empire Rifles, least expensive rifle they make, or that they'd quote.

I thought that a few years ago when Heym took their price increase of about a $3K jump that they did it because they could. But the gun justifies the price?

Can one tell by looking at a disassembled guns, whether in person or in pictures, that cast parts are being used in their maunfacture? Demas receivers are forged. But of any components that are cast, is it vital that they be forged? I don't have a problem with a modern casting as long as it's not a highly stressed component.

Is Merkel using castings?

So have we come to any kind of a conclusion on valid price point?
Asking price for this one is $14500 USD

It is definately monoblock construction, where the block has been joined they have engraved a pattern around the seam, which appears to be quite visable by the way.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
I thought that a few years ago when Heym took their price increase of about a $3K jump that they did it because they could. But the gun justifies the price?

You were misinformed.

quote:

Can one tell by looking at a disassembled guns, whether in person or in pictures, that cast parts are being used in their maunfacture? Demas receivers are forged. But of any components that are cast, is it vital that they be forged? I don't have a problem with a modern casting as long as it's not a highly stressed component.

Yes, sometimes you can tell (mould seams). I agree, cast parts are fine - on a Ruger. On a double rifle that costs more than, say, $5000, it wouldn't be acceptable to me, but that's just me. Kinda like non-seamless mono-bloc, it just shouldn't be obvious at that price point.

Look, lots of things have been done over the years to reduce costs, and it isn't new. It's like the difference between chopper, dovetail, and shoe-lump barrels. Chopper-lump is the most expensive by far, and is considered the strongest. That said, most of Westley Richards very best (as well as their cheapest) pre-war double rifles had shoe-lump barrels (they use chopper-lump today). It was a LOT cheaper. Some of the very best quality pre-war Hollands and Purdeys were dovetail-lump. Even though chopper-lump had been available since the advent of fluid steel, in those days, that's what their best barrel makers (older guys who originally had learned on damascus) were used to making. As long as it didn't produce any problems, it didn't really matter - what DID matter was build quality, and that's never been defined by bells and whistles or glossy finish.

Chapuis' one piece ribs are a cost cutting measure that I've wondered about some. I've heard from some that there's no way to repair a loose rib without separating the barrels. Don't know if that's true. If it is, seems like that would be expensive as hell. That might be why Chapuis squealed when one of their rifles came back with the rib knocked loose from using monometal bullets - for the second time in a row.

When you get up into what decent DRs cost, there's a difference between what will work and what a reasonably astute buyer should be expected to accept at the given price point.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I'm OK with shoe-lump. I'm OK with cast parts if they are not vital components that could cause the rifle to fail whereas a forged part in it's place would not have failed.

One of the main reasons I DON'T buy Ruger is due to cast parts. Is there evidence of their failure. Doesn't seem to be. Same with Searcy, as I understand that their receivers are investment castings.

I'm going to try to find out what cast parts Demas may use. I'm under the impression that they do not use them.


Does anyone know if Merkel uses castings?

quote:

Originally posted by notlim:
So have we come to any kind of a conclusion on valid price point?
Asking price for this one is $14500 USD

It is definately monoblock construction, where the block has been joined they have engraved a pattern around the seam, which appears to be quite visable by the way.

From those here who have the knowledge, hasn't it been settled, that the big bore Demas doubles built with only one set of barrels, are shoe-lump?

The G&H rifles were $15K. I tough it was too high then and still do. We are pre ordering them here for much less. And I think the Canadian $ and import/export costs between France and Canada make it even more favorable for you as a buyer. Find an importer there who can order one for you and you'll save a ton off of the $14-15K.

Demas video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s40ERaEFb_Q

Email sent to the export manager at Verney-Carron asking him to clarify the issue on the the use of any cast parts or not.

Are we here certain that cast parts are used or is it an assumption given the price the maker asks for the guns? The receiver components are stated on the website to be forged. If there were a small number of other small parts that were investment castings, would that be the large difference in cost between a Heym and a Demas?

Something important was pointed out to me. That is the investment needed to design and produce the equipment neede to make investment castings is very expensive. If a maker only truns out a small number of guns per year, is this a sound biz decision? Might it not be more cost effective to forge the small parts?

quote:

Originally posted by notlim:
So have we come to any kind of a conclusion on valid price point?
Asking price for this one is $14500 USD

It is definately monoblock construction, where the block has been joined they have engraved a pattern around the seam, which appears to be quite visable by the way.

The DEMAS double rifles, may be as good as any rifle in it's class, and since I have no personal experience with them, I can only go by what tickles the back of my neck when spending $14,000 USD for a double rifle. This is just one man's opinion,and as I said I have no experience with these rifle, but I do have experience with HEYM, and between them I would spend $2,000 USD more and buy the HEYM 88B SAFARI!

.......................

Thanks for all the interest,
especially Bart and Mac for their opinions on the value.
I'm still not sure of the relative merits of the demas, but it certainly doesn't have the name brand recognition of the heym.
The sights seem to be kind of crappy on the demas. Does anyone have pictures of the sights on the heym?

quote:

Originally posted by notlim:
Thanks for all the interest,
especially Bart and Mac for their opinions on the value.
I'm still not sure of the relative merits of the demas, but it certainly doesn't have the name brand recognition of the heym.
The sights seem to be kind of crappy on the demas. Does anyone have pictures of the sights on the heym?

I've never seen the standard sights on a Demas. I've seen the H&H type day/hight sights and they were terrific. The Demas is, IMO, a better gun than a Chapuis or Merkel, and at the same price point this says alot. I'm not certain that Demas uses cast parts or not. I will find out for certain. And if they don't then it represents an outstanding value in an entry level double. Would it still be a value, as with a Heym, in the $15K ramge? That's up to the buyer. Many have chosen Chapuis and Merkel instead. I don't think that or any Demas 470 or 500 is worth $15K only because they can be had for $4-5K less, AT THIS TIME. What there is no doubt about is that Heym is a excellant rifle.

http://www.heymusa.com/

http://www.heym-waffenfabrik.de/english/indexeng.html

Notlim I have sent them e-mail and here is what I got:

"Dear Sir,

The first price is the XA SAFARI1 done as followed :

Side by side

Extractor,

Double trigger

Pistol grip stock with check piece and steel cap

One fixed leaf, rear sight

Scroll engraving, one subject (under receiver)

Barrel of 60 cm

Price is : 7820€ (taxes included)

Wbr"

The pricing is on the website. It seems buried if you don't understand any French. It's a PDF file on the catalogue page, I think, and it's inclusive of VAT but not any export tax. In France I think it's at the luxury goods rate which is 33% but this may be assessed in lieu of VAT, I'm not sure. So at the retail conversion rate as of today, €1=$1.44781 comes to $11321.87. Not sure of any/all taxes levied by France and then one's country though.

Demas makes 400 guns a year, 80 being shotguns. There is still nothing I've found among info and articles that would suggest that Demas uses cast parts. I'll get a definitive answer soon.

There is an excellent article in the website on the "Entreprise" page from French Hunter magazine.

My email to Demas was forwarded to Guillaume Verney-Carron then Ken @ Kebco who called to say that Atelier Demas does not use any cast parts in any way in any gun. ALL parts are solid steel.

David