My second Sabatti - an excellent Double Rifle for the money
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In response to an original inquiry by Bill73 about Sabatti rifles, I posted the following:

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Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
There are a lot of the newer Sabatti's on Gunbroker,including O/U's,has anyone here come close to one of these guns? anyone bought one of these? has the quality improved?

Hello Bill73,

In reply to your original question, I gave you the link to my Sabatti 500NE, and my satisfaction with it.

Well, I just recently acquired a second Sabatti - a Big Five Model 92 EJ in 470NE caliber. It was NEAR NEW, being test fired only. All the internet criticism about Sabatti had the owner spooked, so he decided he better sell it - lucky for me.





I didn't have a 470NE yet, and I wanted to try an ejector model. The price was right, $3400, which I think is a steal for an ejector 470NE. I figured at that price, I could always send it to Aaron for re-regulation if it needed it.

Based on my first testing with handloads, I don't think I'll be sending it to Aaron any time soon.

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Here is some additional information about some of the loads I'm currently testing in this 470NE.

According to the regulation target supplied with the rifle, it was regulated with 500g Hornady Factory ammo. I didn't have any Hornady ammo, but I did have a few rounds of 500g Federal Factory Ammo.

I'm very pleased with the results of the Federal Ammo, but not surprisingly, the measured velocities were over 100fps "slower" than advertised.




I'm now starting to test some handloads with different bullets to try to achieve higher velocities. I'm confident that eventually the magic formula will be found.




It appears that bullet shape is a significant fator with this rifle. The Kynoch bullets tested below were more pointed than the Hornadys, and performed much better. This led me to review some of the data from different doubles that I've tested. I'm finding that bullet "shape" can be a major variable in regulation.





Since all groups are printing "high" I've ordered a number of "taller" front sight blades from the Italian Firearms Group. The people there were very helpful and pleasant to deal with.

All-in-all I'm very pleased with this Sabatti, and unlike the former owner, I have no concerns about its performane.
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If I am reading all the target data correctly, looks like not only is bullet shape critical, but you are going to have to keep the velocity around 1850-1900 fps to prevent the barrels from crossing. Like you, I am happy with my .450 NE Sabatti but they do require some aftermarket work to get them enjoyable.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
If I am reading all the target data correctly, looks like not only is bullet shape critical, but you are going to have to keep the velocity around 1850-1900 fps to prevent the barrels from crossing. Like you, I am happy with my .450 NE Sabatti but they do require some aftermarket work to get them enjoyable.

I agree! all the targets show crossing @ 50 yds, so will have to be slowed down to get a proper regulation composite group.

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quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I agree! all the targets show crossing @ 50 yds, so will have to be slowed down to get a proper regulation composite group.

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Hello MacD37,

Thanks for the reply.

Although some of the test targets do show crossing, the 4350 load with the Kynoch bullets does not. I'll be experimenting with these bullets and a few different powders, to see if I can "up" the velocity slightly. Past testing has shown me that bullet seating depth can also affect crossing.

buckstix,
Wish you the best with your rifle,may I suggest calling Hornady & asking for load data? That will save you time & material,I did so for my 450/400 & it was spot on with most any bullet,you are also correct that bullet seating depth will effect on regulation,it changes the load dimensions & therefore has an effect on velocity,this I have proved using a chronograph,however it is a mute point when loading for my 470 because my seating depth stays constant to the crimp groove,thank,all the best.

My Sabatti 450 NE crossed with all loads and factory except for the Hornady 500 RNs (not DG series) at under 2000 fps. After regulation by Aaron, it now seems to shoot the velocities between 2000 and 2300 fps, 480 DGX and 450 TTSX respectively, fairly well. My Sabatti also shot very high, and even with the tallest front sight I could find from NECG, it was still printing high.

I will be very interested if you can find a full velocity load that doesn't cross. This is my first double so I may have missed something.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
buckstix,
Wish you the best with your rifle,may I suggest calling Hornady & asking for load data? That will save you time & material,I did so for my 450/400 & it was spot on with most any bullet,you are also correct that bullet seating depth will effect on regulation,it changes the load dimensions & therefore has an effect on velocity,this I have proved using a chronograph,however it is a mute point when loading for my 470 because my seating depth stays constant to the crimp groove,thank,all the best.

Hello Bill73,

Thanks for the reply.

I called Hornady and asked for their load data, but they explained that they use an Industrial Powder that has no direct correlation to commercial powders available to the handloader.

They suggested H4831 powder - citing a range of 95.6g = 1900 fps up to 112.7g = 2150 fps, using their 500g DGX and DGS bullets.

I have little faith in their data because I tested a load using 100g H4831 and the 500g Hornady DGX bullets but only obtained 1745 fps ave velocity, and the bullets had crossed. I plan on increasing the charge to 112g on the next outing to see how they perform.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
buckstix,
Wish you the best with your rifle,may I suggest calling Hornady & asking for load data? That will save you time & material,I did so for my 450/400 & it was spot on with most any bullet,you are also correct that bullet seating depth will effect on regulation,it changes the load dimensions & therefore has an effect on velocity,this I have proved using a chronograph,however it is a mute point when loading for my 470 because my seating depth stays constant to the crimp groove,thank,all the best.

Hello Bill73,

Thanks for the reply.

I called Hornady and asked for their load data, but they explained that they use an Industrial Powder that has no direct correlation to commercial powders available to the handloader.

They suggested H4831 powder - citing a range of 95.6g = 1900 fps up to 112.7g = 2150 fps, using their 500g DGX and DGS bullets.

I have little faith in their data because I tested a load using 100g H4831 and the 500g Hornady DGX bullets but only obtained 1745 fps ave velocity, and the bullets had crossed. I plan on increasing the charge to 112g on the next outing to see how they perform.

I wonder what has happened at Hornady,when I called them about my 450-400 & explained that I was using their bullets,they were very helpful,I got the load from one of their tech's no problem,that was about two years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
My Sabatti 450 NE crossed with all loads and factory except for the Hornady 500 RNs (not DG series) at under 2000 fps. After regulation by Aaron, it now seems to shoot the velocities between 2000 and 2300 fps, 480 DGX and 450 TTSX respectively, fairly well. My Sabatti also shot very high, and even with the tallest front sight I could find from NECG, it was still printing high.

I will be very interested if you can find a full velocity load that doesn't cross. This is my first double so I may have missed something.

Hello INTJ

Thanks for the reply.

I've got some taller front sights on order and will be testing them shortly.


I'm curious, did you add any weight or recoil reducers to your rifle after you got it?

Yes. An 11 oz Mercury reduced from Brownells. It helps a little, but after your experience with the .700 I am not sure you'd need it.

Do you have a link to the sight maker? I would like to bring mine down a little more and am leery about grinding on my rear sight more than what Aaron already did.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Yes. An 11 oz Mercury reduced from Brownells.

+1. On mine, I (i) added a Mercury recoil reducer, (ii) added a Pachmayr red declerator recoil pad, (iii) had the triggers lightened to around 4 pounds front and 4.5-5 pounds rear. Subsequently I had the solder at the muzzle end touched up and had one of the firing pins replaced.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Yes. An 11 oz Mercury reduced from Brownells. It helps a little, but after your experience with the .700 I am not sure you'd need it.

Do you have a link to the sight maker? I would like to bring mine down a little more and am leery about grinding on my rear sight more than what Aaron already did.

Hello INTJ

Thanks for the reply.

I added 2 Tungsten weights (2.8 pounds) to this 470NE ro reduce the felt recoil. But now I'm starting to think that the added weight might be the cause of my loads "crossing" because it changed the dynamics of the rifle's recoil. I'll have to remove them, and re-check my groups.

When I was shooting a 600 bpe a couple of years ago, before I bought my VC 600NE, the rifle started slightly crossing "after" I added a 1 pound weight to the stock. I didn't think too much about it at the time because I soon sold that one, but now I'm starting to wonder so I'll have to conduct an experiment.

As for sight maker, I ordered several direct from NECG - I'll let you know the type and size when I'm done testing.

Hi Buckstix, I've really enjoyed your posts, especially with the 700 . Quite a project.

May I suggest you try RL 15 with 500 gr bullets and backer rod filler. Got the recipe from both Wright and Ross Seyfried. Mine regulates great with 84 gr. the only work I've done to make mine fit me is: higher front sight, file rear sight to shallower V, cut stock and installed 1 inch Pachmeyer to 14 3/4 LOP, 8oz lead in buttstock, had Ken Owen reduce front trigger to 4 lb.
Guess I'm one of the lucky ones, mine is unmolested and shoots great.
Good luck with yours!
Larry

quote:

Originally posted by ChiefR53:
Hi Buckstix, I've really enjoyed your posts, especially with the 700 . Quite a project.

May I suggest you try RL 15 with 500 gr bullets and backer rod filler. Got the recipe from both Wright and Ross Seyfried. Mine regulates great with 84 gr. the only work I've done to make mine fit me is: higher front sight, file rear sight to shallower V, cut stock and installed 1 inch Pachmeyer to 14 3/4 LOP, 8oz lead in buttstock, had Ken Owen reduce front trigger to 4 lb.
Guess I'm one of the lucky ones, mine is unmolested and shoots great.
Good luck with yours!
Larry

Hello ChiefR53

Thanks for the reply.

And thanks for you comments on my 700 project.

R15 is next on my list to test. I'm waiting for the taller front sites that I have on order to arrive before proceeding.

Hello Buck;

My rifle so far performed best with 106g of IMR 4831 and Horn DGS 500g bullets velocity was 2162 f/s. Not crossing all 6 bullets where in 2 1/8" group at 60 meters. As you can see in the other pix the TSX were crossing even at a lighter charge (104g and 2100f/s).
Also using 89g of RL 15 and backer rod filler caused the bullets to cross even at a slower velocity of 2000 f/s. on the other hand using 89g of RL 15 with backer rod filler with the DGS did not cross and produced a nice group of 3/4" C to C. velocity was slow (1950 f/s).

Hello malek,

Thanks for the reply.

I tried RL15 and didn't have much sucess. I got crossing, albeit by only a couple of inches.

Most of my groups using 500g Hornady DGX bullets are slightly crossing.

So far my best groups are with IMR4350 and original 500g Kynoch bullets. From a COLD gun I get Right/Left pairs about 3/4" apart with right being slightly above and to the right - and left being slightly below and to the left. The left barrel starts to "wander" a bit for the 3rd and 4th shot when the gun starts to warm up, but still acceptable. The right barrel hangs in there for the 3rd and 4th shots giving a composite group slightly over an inch. Velocities are a bit low, but then again, I'm still testing. We'll see what happens.

This gun seems to like bullets with a longer nose.



UPDATE: In response to INTJ and my front sight change:

I ordered a .394" high front sight direct from NECG. However, this higher front sight was only available with a 5/64" (.078) silver bead. That bead is too small so I removed the original .137" bead that was on the front sight that came with the rifle, and also removed the 5/64" bead from the new sight, and swapped them. Both beads were easily removed from their respective blades by pulling them out with a pin-vise. I then re-installed the brass bead into the taller blade with red loc-tite.

The new taller front sight lowered the bullet impact at 50 yards by about 7". You can see the difference by comparing the target above, with the 4th target in my opening post. These were the same loads.

Hello Buck;

I had the same experience using RL15 as I mentioned previously and that is not only when using it in the 470. Also when I used it in my Sabatti 9.3x74R it caused my bullets to cross. On the other hand when I used a slower burning powder (H4831, in the case of the 470 IMR 4831), it corrected the problem to the point where my bullets were shooting R to R and L to L almost at the acclaimed velocities of each cartridge.

My conclusions supports the fact that when you slow down the time curve using a slower burning powder it seems to slow down the recoil minimizing the crossing effect.

If I had one an didn't like the regulation then I would play with it loading wise, if that didn't work, I would load up some near max laods that I liked and send them and the gun to someone like David Yale and have it reregulated..NOt sure where David is now as he moved from Colorado to Wesconsin or wherever he was from...He can really regulate a double..Im sure there are others who can accommodate you.

Ive never owned a Sabatti, but they look nice in pictures. Ive heard a lot of bad about them on the internet, but I never put a lot of faith in negativity as to rifles, you always get both good and bad reports about equal on this sort of thing. I remember early on that Merkels were alleged not to shoot accurately, but I shot a dozen of them and they all shot very well indeed..