I watched a TV series on safari wherein the hunter , an older guy took an antelope for leopard bait with his Heym SXS in 300HH, scoped at 512 Yards. In my wildest imagination I wouldn't think this was possible, since the scope is mounted center, has anyone shot there doubles at these extreme ranges

Blind ass luck, I say.

I saw that show. The shooter didn't seem too suprised at the hit. He had to have practiced long range shooting with that double.

If the scope was sighted to the right barrel only, not to regulation, the gun becomes a single shot for all practical purposes with the scope. With that set up, you are limited to the accuracy of the right barrel, not the accuracy of the two barrels individual groups combined as with shooting iron sights and using the rifles regulation.

Entirely feasible as long as the right barrel's accuracy is good enough. Many shooters who scope their doubles opt for this arrangement as putting a scope on a double can really interfere with the recoil arc of the rifle which will negate regulation. It is much easier to simply use the scope as a single shot for long range and detach the scope for close in work using the irons and regulation of the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by raamw:
I watched a TV series on safari wherein the hunter , an older guy took an antelope for leopard bait with his Heym SXS in 300HH, scoped at 512 Yards. In my wildest imagination I wouldn't think this was possible, since the scope is mounted center, has anyone shot there doubles at these extreme ranges

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Blind ass luck, I say.

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
I saw that show. The shooter didn't seem too suprised at the hit. He had to have practiced long range shooting with that double.

Gentlemen it always amazes me that people think a double rifle can’t be used past the muzzle! That shot though amazing, even with a 30 magnum is no more imposible with a double rifle than with any hunting rifle.

If a double is regulated properly, and the loads are right for the regulation being used by a man who knows his rifle they are as accurate as the same cartridge in a single barreled rifle with the same sighting equipment.

I think because still in today’s gun world people still believe a double rifle is regulated to cross at the so-called regulated distance. The “regulated distance” applies only to the elevation and windage of the iron sight at that distance. The centers of each barrel’s individual group is always on it’s own side of the aiming point or side by side. This means the sight setting is the same for both barrels no matter the range. We have members of the DRSS who rutinely shoot game in the 200 to over 300 yd shots with double rifles.

Of course in this case that shot would have been exceptional with any hunting rifle, regardless of how many barrels it had!

Todd and Mac,

I can see how It can be done, but I can't get my arms around the scope vs. bore axis. It seems to me that the scope, unless offset and mounted center of one barrel, could only be accurate at a certain distance where it's sighted in. In simpler terms, a hold over on a bolt gun or single shot can be guessed/doped. However, I don't see how you can predict the bullet path at that range with an off-center scope.

Up here in Nebraska, we do that all the time but the shot is usually taken while mounted on a galloping horse with the reins in your mouth and 512 yards, we call that a chip shot.

I am not expert .... but .... Even if the bore axis is differnt it would be possible to achieve this with the modern drop & windage marked scope like the Leupold B&C reticle or the Swarovski, Zeiss etc.

Gentlemen

I know the hunter that made that shot, and I know the PH he was hunting with.

I talked to them about it at SCI.

I have no reason to doubt the story.

I have killed a coyote at 287 yards and a kudu at a little over 300 yards with my scoped 9,3x74R double.
Both shots were in front of several witnessess and on video.

Doubles are not just short range rifles.

Additional info.

That hunter has a Heym SxS Double Rifle that is a three barreled set.
It has the 300 barrels, a 450 Nitro set of barrels, and a 20ga set of barrels.

That is one slick "rig".

Even if your scope is off axis it's not by much. If someone was to sight in this way you would just always be off that small amount, but dialing for range wouldn't change a thing.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:
Todd and Mac,

I can see how It can be done, but I can't get my arms around the scope vs. bore axis. It seems to me that the scope, unless offset and mounted center of one barrel, could only be accurate at a certain distance where it's sighted in. In simpler terms, a hold over on a bolt gun or single shot can be guessed/doped. However, I don't see how you can predict the bullet path at that range with an off-center scope.

Actually Marcus, the offset is minimal and I really don't think it would affect it that much. I also have no idea if the shooter used the single barrel method for that matter. I don't on my 9.3X74R. I had a hell of a time getting the rifle to regulate with the scope on mine but chose not to go with the single shot theory as I wanted it to perform the way it was meant to.

As Mac states however, with a rifle that is properly regulated to the ammo, the only crossing that should occur is the size of the two individual barrels respective groups overlapping. For example, take a double rifle with the bore centers 1" apart. At 100 yards, let's say each barrel is capable of exactly 1" groups. If that is the case, some of the right barrel's rounds will touch some of the left barre's rounds but should never cross. If at 200 yards, the two barrels are capable of individual 2" groups, some of the rounds from each barrel will now cross but not all. As distance is increased, the individual barrel's groups continue to get larger and therefore more and more rounds will cross. But what is important to realize is that the center of each barrel's groups should remain 1" apart as are the barrels, assuming the rifle and ammo are properly regulated. It isn't a matter of the two barrels shooting parallel to infinity. It is a matter of the CENTER of each barrel's group remaining parallel to infinity.

Put another way, take two 4" groups. Place the center of the two 4" groups, 1" apart. Some bullets from the right group will be 2 inches left of the right group's center. Some of the bullets from the left group will be 2 inches right of the left group's center. Therefore, when the two group's centers are placed 1" apart (the same distance as the barrel's centers) some bullet holes will be crossed and others will not.

Working on the above premise, if the individual barrels' accuracy on the Heym from the show is sufficient with properly regulated ammo, I don't see why that shot would be considered unbelievable. But I also have to say that a shot at that range is beyond my capabilities with a double. After all, reality is different from theory!

Just use two scopes, making the gun a "double, double" .

well put Tod!

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quote:

It is a matter of the CENTER of each barrel's group remaining parallel to infinity.

That is basically what I was thinking. However, I don't usually consider what I learned in algebra class the definitive guide to life (Sorry Miss Atwater!), so I am open to the other opinions.

Plus, Annie Oakley used birdshot when the audience thought it was bullets. And if reality shows like "Survivor" had any resemblance to reality, do you think people would let their fate be decided by how many coconuts they could gather while running an obstacle course in a hula skirt?

What makes for good entertainment, even if performed by the very best, does not preclude a certain amount of sleight of hand or suspension of reality. And, yes, hunting videos are held to a bit lower evidentiary standard than, for instance, papers on atom-smashing at CERN. And a lot more fun, which is the point.

quote:

Originally posted by MichiganShooter:

quote:

It is a matter of the CENTER of each barrel's group remaining parallel to infinity.

That is basically what I was thinking. However, I don't usually consider what I learned in algebra class the definitive guide to life (Sorry Miss Atwater!), so I am open to the other opinions.

Plus, Annie Oakley used birdshot when the audience thought it was bullets. And if reality shows like "Survivor" had any resemblance to reality, do you think people would let their fate be decided by how many coconuts they could gather while running an obstacle course in a hula skirt?

What makes for good entertainment, even if performed by the very best, does not preclude a certain amount of sleight of hand or suspension of reality. And, yes, hunting videos are held to a bit lower evidentiary standard than, for instance, papers on atom-smashing at CERN. And a lot more fun, which is the point.

???

I would never question any AR member's ability to hit an 8 inch target at 500 yards, in the field, the first shot. That is required in order to be ethically shooting at game animals. I am sure many can do it with their double rifles of myriad calibers. (None of mine will or would do that). However, I have seen many people (literally thousands) shoot rifles over the past 50 years, and I have to say, very few of them could do it with a scoped bolt action after they practiced doing it. 500 yards is a long way from 300 when it comes to rifle bullets. I am afraid that people with little knowledge of shooting will see the video and think it is common to perform such feats. I am not saying it is impossible, just very difficult. And for large caliber DRs, wow. For 99% of hunters, shooting at game at 500 yards is irresponsible and unethical.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I would never question any AR member's ability to hit an 8 inch target at 500 yards, in the field, the first shot. That is required in order to be ethically shooting at game animals. I am sure many can do it with their double rifles of myriad calibers. (None of mine will or would do that). However, I have seen many people (literally thousands) shoot rifles over the past 50 years, and I have to say, very few of them could do it with a scoped bolt action after they practiced doing it. 500 yards is a long way from 300 when it comes to rifle bullets. I am afraid that people with little knowledge of shooting will see the video and think it is common to perform such feats. I am not saying it is impossible, just very difficult. And for large caliber DRs, wow. For 99% of hunters, shooting at game at 500 yards is irresponsible and unethical.

I agree with that as well,but we are not talking about YOU doing it. What we are discussing is is the rifle capable of doing it.

As I said above, a 512 yd shot is way beyond almost every hunter's ability, as you say with any rifle. I would say that most average hunters couldn't place one bullet out of 10 on a 55 gallon oil drum at 512 yds, but tat has nothing to do with the rifles ability if it is regulated properly, and the loads are proper for the regulation.

The fact is I know a lot of people who shoot double rifles exclusivly and they are sattisfied with the way there rifles shoot. However I can tell you that about one out of ten have a real proper regulating load for them. Because their rifles will not do well at long range, they assume that that is the way all double rifles shoot. The problem is not the rifle but the owner!

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A couple of months ago I was at my gun club. We have steel gongs round 16" diameter out to 500 yards.

I can hit the 300, 400, and the 500 yard gong most regular, with both barrels, of my scoped Blaser D99 Duo in 308 WCF.

This is a Double rifle Drilling with two 308 barrels and one 20ga barrel...

I would love to have a Heym in 8x75RS or 7x75 Vom Hofe. Both calibers are fairly flatshooting and could become candidats for longrange doublerifle hunting. Ofcouse the rimmed .300H&H is appealing but I do not know the ballistics of that one?.

dpcd, you would be more than welcome to question my ability to be certain of a hit in an 8" circle at 500 yards. I might fluke it but that would be it. It is the reason I have never shot a game animal at more than 200 yards but am full of admiration for those who can shoot accurately at 500 yds, best, Mike

??? [/QUOTE]

Todd,

Could you be a little more specific?

A double rifle provides 2 ultra-reliable shots for those that need that reliability, usually in dangerous game situations. While it is true that a bullet from a DR can hit a target at 500+ yards, those that can do it from both barrels are certainly a rarity. Taking shots at live game at that range, presumably off sticks, is irresponsible IMHO regardless of rifle.

Yeah, I saw the show and the shot, too. Didn't know for sure which barrel set (i.e. cartridge) he used till I read this thread. I must have missed that piece of info watching the show.

Gents:
Todd's first post was spot on as to sight the scope for one barrel only. I do that with my .450-400 but have been in the habit to shoot the left barrel first.

Just to add a bit. If one makes the choice to use the scope for one barrel and treat the double as a single shot only with a scope, then it is easy to change the velocity and the bullet weight for long range shooting, such as in the .450-400 using a 300-grain pointed bullet in place of the standard 400-grain round nose.

It's great having a shooting range in my front yard so I can reload, shoot, change the load in a few minutes, and shoot again.

Just my input.
Cheers,
Cal

Thanks for the lesson, guys. I always like to learn new things, and the DR world is full of new information for me.

If I recall correctly they stated it was a twin barreled set, I believe the other set was called a 450.
As far as shooting at those ranges I guess if you practice enough to be confident at those range and all other conditions are correct such as wind etc the shot may be ethical
When you see these guys on Long range pursuit taking 1000 yd or better shots that to me is way over the limit, the art of hunting is stalking and sure kill shots. at those ranges it takes seconds for the bullet to get to the target not to mention all the variables that come into play.

Gee there is no doubt some one with almost any big bore African rifle can hit a target at 500 yards with practice. But my question is ?????
WHY
I thought hunting in Africa was get up close and personal.
Ok well
Larry

Orig post says 300, not big bore.

quote:

Originally posted by elk88101:
with almost any big bore African rifle

There's plenty of hunting that's not DG, and a double rifle is a great hunting rifle.



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MichiganShooter:

quote:

It is a matter of the CENTER of each barrel's group remaining parallel to infinity.

That is basically what I was thinking. However, I don't usually consider what I learned in algebra class the definitive guide to life (Sorry Miss Atwater!), so I am open to the other opinions...And a lot more fun, which is the point.

???

Todd,

Thank you for more fully explaining your question.

On Elk 88101's comment, I agree--why make a shot like that? I'd guess because it makes for better television. I saw a program where a grizzly was shot at a lasered 600 or 700 yards. That sure got my attention. Of course, either situation may have all the veracity of a Stalin-era group photo. Or not.

quote:

Originally posted by MichiganShooter:

On Elk 88101's comment, I agree--why make a shot like that? I'd guess because it makes for better television. I saw a program where a grizzly was shot at a lasered 600 or 700 yards. That sure got my attention. Of course, either situation may have all the veracity of a Stalin-era group photo. Or not.

I'm sure others will have opposing opinions on this subject, as that is adequately apparent from the posts so far! With that said, here is another opinion!

It is a fact that the double rifle was designed to be a stopping weapon in the larger chamberings, and is most effective in that persuit. The double rifle is also designed to be used with quick instinctive shooting like a shotgun.

It is true that the above is where the big bore double rifle shines its best light. Where the shooter of these larger chambered double rifle needs to learn where his rifle shoots at longer range is, when he is confronted with the realization that his shots have not put a very dangerous animal down, and it is fast disappearing into the bush where it will be very dangerous to go into the weeds with this wounded animal to sort it out.

In the above case the responsible hunter of dangerous game should be shooting as long as this animal is in sight or until it goes down for the count! If the double rifle shooter doesn’t know where his rifle shoots at longer ranges he automatically puts the PH and tracker, and/or himself in peril if he doesn’t do everything in his power to end this as quick, and efficiently as possible. In many cases this requires longer shots.

However many double rifles are made in very flat shooting chamberings, and many are scoped for use in mountain shooting of European roe, chamois and red stagg. These animals are most often hunted in areas where long shots are the norm. Europeans have been shooting these smaller chambered doubles for this purpose for over a hundred years. Simply because a rifle has two barrels doesn’t mean that when properly used it can’t be used as well as any hunting rifle. It is a matter of the shooter knowing his rifle!

To finish this personal opinion, I think people have been brain washed to believe a double rifle is only usable 30 yds off the muzzles, and that ain’t true!

I will say again I consider shooting at un-wounded game animals at 500 plus yards is irresponsible with any hunting rifle under hunting conditions and more so with a double rifle! That however doesn’t mean it can’t be done by a man who knows his rifle.

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Of course this shot was largely a matter of luck being on the shooters side. Of course how much luck you have is dependent on how much practice you do at long range and how accurate you and your rifle are at that range.

465H&H

and if the wind speed changes or the animal moves ! best

Was this a HEYM rifle or a "Helm" rifle?

I don't know what a "Helm" is.

Phonetic spelling on my part, what the helm!

I don't understand why anyone wanting to hunt with a .300 H&H would chamber it in a double.

Two reasons come to mind

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I don't understand why anyone wanting to hunt with a .300 H&H would chamber it in a double.

magic wand handling and ultra rapid second shot.

You should pick up a high grade .30 caliber double rifle some time. As long as it's accurate and properly regulated, there's no better way to run the cartridge.



Cheers
Tinker

An ideally regulated double rifle shoots two shot groups in the shape of an "8" lieing on it's side (with the distance between the "0's" of the "8" the distance between the muzzles of the rifle,) with the right barrel to the right of the line of site and the left to the left. And that "8" remains the group shape and size from muzzle to when the bullets hit the dirt.

How close to that ideal any double rifle shoots is a matter of the regulator's skill and the ammunition loader's skill. I have three double rifles, and the one I have done the most loading work with will shoot to that ideal, with two loads and two bullet weights.

So, that rifle of mine is up to the shot in the video, but that doesn't mean I'm up to it. I've shot targets that far out and more, but that is too far on game, imo. At least for me.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I don't understand why anyone wanting to hunt with a .300 H&H would chamber it in a double.

Indy, I think this one qualifies in the old saying that "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand".

Folks are either double fans or they aren't. I'm going through a stage right now where I'm not really interested in ANY rifle other than a double. I keep thinking this obsession will pass soon but it just seems to be getting worse, especially the more I shoot them. A properly regulated double in a caliber like 300H&H, fitted with a scope, would be a classy weapon by all measures, and capable of making any shot the vast majority of hunters are capable of making. The only comment I'd personally make against the 300H&H in a double is that I would prefer the rimmed version.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
I don't understand why anyone wanting to hunt with a .300 H&H would chamber it in a double.

Indy, I think you have it backwards! If a guy wants to hunt with a double rifle why would he want a 300 H&H?(actually a 300H&H super a flanged .300) The answer is because he wants a double rifle for North America, and plains game everywhere!

Todd has it right if you are not into double rifles you can't be expected to understand!

I have about 100 firearms pistols, rifles and shotguns, and among those are seven double rifles and five double barreled pistols, and the only things that get used regularly are the firearms with more than one barrel, be they double rifle, double pistol, double barreled combination guns, or double barreled shotguns. These double barrels range from .22lr to 58 caliber, and shotguns from 410 ga to 12 ga.
The combinations range from 20ga to 12 ga, and the rifle sides from .22lr to 58 caliber. I basically hunt everything with a double barreled rifle or pistol or shotgun, though I have a choice of about all types.

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