I believe I need to get my Chapuis shortened a bit. What is the correct trigger on a double rifle to have the length of pull set on? Currently the rear trigger feels right, but I can barely reach the front trigger. I'm pulling with the very tip of my index finger on the front trigger.
Thanks
Bfly

The front one. And the rear one will be an inch shorter for LOP.
However, it does seem that a DR that feels good for me has up to an inch longer LOP to the front trigger than my preferred bolt action LOP.
I am medium height with arms spanning two inches more than my height.
I like a 14.5" LOP on a bolt action,
but the generic 14.5"&13.5" double-trigger LOP seems a bit short.
I don't think I am unusual at all in this.
Can the double rifle gurus explain why the double rifle seems to run a little longer on LOP than bolt action when custom fit to the "bespeaking" shooter?

By all means, I am not a double rifle guru, but I just got my Krieghoff double rifle stock extended. The LOP was originally 14 3/4", I have now made it 15 1/4". Feels great! Both shooting with open sights and with a scope.

My reasoning behind the modification was from shotgun fit, as I do a lot of shotgun shooting as well. My shotguns typically have 15 1/4" LOP.

Would be interesting to hear what other double rifle owners think about LOP; is it really important? How does it compare with LOP of a bolt action rifle or a shotgun?

If I am not mistaken LOP is the length between the inner elbow to the trigger finger.Go to the Searcy sight and click on gallery then order form and you will see a diagram for measurements.The D represents LOP-I believe.This measurement is the same for my Martini custom bolt rifle and my Searcy double.It is just perfect,IMO.The front trigger is the one used to set LOP on.It is all about feeling comfortable and things falling into place naturally.

The length between inner elbow and trigger finger is just a rule of thumb when it comes to choosing correct gun fit. Many other factors can influence gun fit, upper body mass for instance. LOP is the actual distance between trigger and butt end of stock.

In my opinion stock fit is often neglected by rifle shooters, and most rifle stocks are made to fit smaller to average size men. I'm 6'4", and most rifles from factory feels awkwardly short. Maybe not that important in hunting situations where one has plenty of time to sight in on a deer 150 yards away, but for driven game hunting or dangerous game hunting I believe proper stock fit is important.

I go much shorter on a bolt rifle than a double rifle or shotgun. About 1.25" shorter for a bolt. I like my doubles at 15.25". With a bolt rifle over 14.5" I am unable to operate the bolt adequately while shouldering the rifle.

My Ruger RSM has a short LOP but I have learned it well.Still,it is not the best set up and perhaps better shooting can be done with the CORRECT LOP.

For English stocked guns I like 15", for those with open pistol grips, like most DR's, or Prince of Wales grips I like 14 7/8" for bolt rifles with open pistol grips I like 14 5/8".

A tight pistol grip will need a shorter stock type for type. roughly 1/8" to 1/4" in my experience, depending on fullness of grip (Seems also that tight pistol grips seem to come with all sorts of additional issues, like palm swell and chunkiness.)

JPK

The bolt guns that I own, which were made to my specification, have LOP's of 14.5". The two doubles that I have ordered, (but have not yet received), will come in with LOP's of 15.25". I'm 6'2" and take a 15" sleeve length.

quote:

Originally posted by CHIPB:
The bolt guns that I own, which were made to my specification, have LOP's of 14.5". The two doubles that I have ordered, (but have not yet received), will come in with LOP's of 15.25". I'm 6'2" and take a 15" sleeve length.

Typo?
Did you mean 35" sleeve?
If so, then you are not chromosomally deranged like I suspect myself of being.

As JPK suggests the grip shape in relation to front trigger location affects a choice in "right-feeling" in LOP.
Stock drop too must figure here.
A zero-drop Bolt Action and a drop-stocked Double Rifle, are both measured from the front inside curve of trigger to center of flat butt rear surface, eh?

Cast off will also add to the diagonal distance too, in a LOP measurement, eh?
http://thearbalistguild.forumo...tures-plans-diagrams


After I get this clear as mud in my head, I am not going to worry about that anymore, nor my chromosomes.



The stocks length of pull (LOP) gives consideration to the general size of the shooter, and the forward or rearward placement of the shooter’s cheek on the comb of the stock.

The drop at comb (DAC) and heel (DAH) is the distance measured from an imaginary horizontal line extending back from the sighting plane of the shotgun. When the shooter's cheek is resting on the comb, these dimensions affect the alignment of the shooter’s eye either above or below the horizontal line of the sighting plane.

The thickness of the comb, and the cast of the stock’s comb determine the left or right positioning of the shooter's eye relative to the centerline of the sighting plane. The “Cast at the Toe” shifts the butt pad position to conform with the muscular structure of the chest and shoulder. The radius of the pistol grip, and the length of trigger pull (LOTP) determines the positioning of the shooter’s hand, affecting both control and comfort.

source: http://skbshotguns.com/85TSS/stock-specs.php

The picture above shows what LOP is.How can the grip or drop have anything to do with LOP? The distance between the trigger and rear of the stock should be the same distance between your inner elbow and the first crease of your index finger.

WRT shotguns, I disagree, and that carrys over to DR's too.

LOP as measured to the center of the butt effects all other measurements, and that makes it the most important, as I see it. For example, the longer the stock relative to that particular shooter the less cast on or off required. Also the shorter the stock the less the cast measurement will be, even with a comb off set an identical amount, since cast is typically referred to as cast at the heel and, separately, at the toe.

LOP also effect drop since it effects where a shooter places his cheek on the stock, or where on the stock his cheek lands when he mounts the rifle or gun.

So, to me, finding a comfortable length is the first step.

Cast is the one measurement I think most have trouble dealing with , but my experience is that of a lefty in a righty world.

RIP, a double rifle's drop at comb and heel is typically measured from an imaginary line extending from the flat of the quarter or full length rib, as is a shotguns. As in this photo, showing a cleaning rod "clamped" to the quarter rib behind the rear sight:


It would make more sense to do it line of sight, but that isn't typical. Here's an example of sight elevation:



To the poster who wrote that moving the hand to accommodate the rear trigger, you should not have to if the front trigger LOP is correct. The rear one is with more cock to the finger is all. Moving the trigger hand is an invitation to doubling the rifle.

JPK

Everyone seems to be off topic and not addressing the question the fellow posed on the first post.After reading these posts,I am more convinced many here know nothing about rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by thirdbite:
Don't think I said you should move the hand - just the opposite. I agree with you - you just have to cock the finger differently. I don't think I made myself clear on the critical nature of LOP. If the stock otherwise fits - drop and cast - then length of pull is not that critical. That doesn't mean that I disagree with you that if you start from the beginning, a comfortable length of pull is probably the best place to start. It just means to me that if other things fit, it is easier to adapt to a different LOP than to drop or cast.

I agree for the most part, but when it comes to shotguns and hunting ducks, and especially geese, with a short-for-me stock I have a horrible tendency to look over the barrels at the decoying bird - and so shoot high. I see other do it frequently as well.

I don't know if that tendency applies to elephants, and would hate to find out!

JPK

quote:

Typo?
Did you mean 35" sleeve?
If so, then you are not chromosomally deranged like I suspect myself of being.

Rip: correct you are… 35" not 15". With measurements like those, all my rifles would need to be bespoke!!

JPK,
I agree that drop at comb should be referenced from the top of the barrel top rib as you have shown.
"Sighting plane" is too vague, as copied from the SKB site,
though for shotgun the sighting plane is the top surface of the rib.
It should be the base that the sights or the shotgun bead sits upon, of course, the rib.

I think everybody is correct here, except shootawhey, and I do not even need to un-ignore his posts to know that.
With his batting average being .000, it would be a miracle if he ever got a hit.

Ah heck, just to reinforce the need to ignore shootawhey, I will look and critique:

His first post above:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If I am not mistaken LOP is the length between the inner elbow to the trigger finger.Go to the Searcy sight and click on gallery then order form and you will see a diagram for measurements.The D represents LOP-I believe.This measurement is the same for my Martini custom bolt rifle and my Searcy double.It is just perfect,IMO.The front trigger is the one used to set LOP on.It is all about feeling comfortable and things falling into place naturally.

The measurement from my elbow crease to my distal index finger crease is 14.5", and that is my straight-stocked Bolt Action LOP, but not my DR LOP. Strike one.

Second pitch:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
My Ruger RSM has a short LOP but I have learned it well.Still,it is not the best set up and perhaps better shooting can be done with the CORRECT LOP.

Now we know why he shoots rifle groups at 100 yards like buckshot patterns. Harmless but useless. Strike two!

Third pitch:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The picture above shows what LOP is.How can the grip or drop have anything to do with LOP? The distance between the trigger and rear of the stock should be the same distance between your inner elbow and the first crease of your index finger.

Same drivel as in his first post. Foul ball!

He gets a fourth pitch then:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Everyone seems to be off topic and not addressing the question the fellow posed on the first post. After reading these posts,I am more convinced many here know nothing about rifles.

Strike three! Yer OUT!
OP question was answered in the first reply after OP. LOP is the topic and all that follows has merit and pertinence,
except for shootawhey's posts, of course.
Now I wash my hands and ignore is back on.

quote:

What is the correct trigger on a double rifle to have the length of pull set on?

The trigger that you naturally go for first, the one that fires the right hand barrel and the one that is furthest away from your shoulder. Of course!

So the front trigger. Always.

BTW the very best way to do this is to be fitted with a try gun. But be aware that your measurements for a SHOT GUN will not be the same as your measurements for a DOUBLE RIFLE.

But that a good stocker who knows the reasons for this will be able to pretty much use measurements taken with a shot gun and use them to stock a double rifle.

Why are the different?

The reason is the MPI. A shot gun is typically stocked to place 60% of the charge above the line of sight.

But on a double rifle obviously you want the centre of the group to be directly on the line of sight. So a 50% - 50% "split".

So the double rifle will have less drop.

Drop being like the hands of a clock. The more drop at the stock the lower the MPI of the charge.

So trap guns have less drop to shoot higher still than the average game gun.

Also a double rifle will tend to have less cast. This is because you have both a front aiming reference (the frontsight) AND a rear aiming reference. The rearsight.

Unlike a shot gun where effectively the rear aiming reference is your eye. There being no rearsight.

Next less cast as less cast means less recoil into your face and as you have a rearsight on the gun critically you don't need the eye to be aligned as its own rear aiming reference.


Lastly less length of pull. Although I forget the reason for this. But there is a reason. I can't remember it.

So this is why some poor writers have looked at quite well known personages' double rifles and from the measurements deducted that they were hideously deformed!

Very short in height, totally no necks, and no shoulders...a body up and down like a lamp post.

Forgetting that these measurements are not the same as those for shot guns!

Any top rank gunmaker like Holland's will be able to fit you for both a side-by-side game gun and a side-by-side double rifle.

But bear in mind that if going to a fitting have someone else drive you there OR arrive a good one hour beforehand so as to get you body back into "normal" shape and not grappling with a steering wheel shape.

Finally on shot gun fitting there is a minor difference with some gunmakers depending on their "house" style.

Holland's can do a "swept" stock but whilst comfortable it looks a little hollowed out and can't really be then re-cast for another user or if you get fatter!

PS. Of the various places that do gun fitting here in England I'd say that Holland's at Northolt do the thing a lot better (or did in my day) that those that use the West London Shooting Ground.

Or so I'd say from experience thirty and twenty plus years ago.

This is because Holland's have a wider variety of clay traps and can "test" you fitting not just on a high tower but also on a driven grouse butt.

As well as a pattern plate.

Please don't EVER get fitted in the front of counter area of a gun shop. It just is a very very poor, if any, substitute.

And those paper sheet patterns...like some sort of mail order tailor's pattern...are best consigned to the rubbish bin. As is that nonsense of measuring LOP by measuring to the elbow from the crook of the first finger first joint.

They take no account of the clothing that you wear nor do they take account of how your eyes sit in your face or your length of neck. Or how your shoulders are in relation to your eye.

On a bolt action rifle the LOP should be set by having the person take up a normal aim and then drawing the bolt back sharply.

Adjust the LOP until it can be drawn back sharply without hitting the person's face.

As always valuable information.
My situation is a bit more complicated. I had a run in with a wood chipper some years ago. After they rebuilt my hand, I was missing the end of my middle finger and part of the tip bones of my index and ring fingers and the loss of feeling and some range of motion in those three fingers. Great plastic surgeon, it looks great, but not quite original equipment. I'm a short tree stump with short arms and a stocky build.
All that to say that your info is very helpful. My gunsmith is a great shotgun guy, no so much of a double rifle guy. I'll need to think about this to see what I'm going to do.
Thanks
Bfly

RIP,stop googling for answers for every single thing that comes up.Dont try to be an expert on everything by using google.

Since you are in PA & with your hand issues I would recommend you talk to Woodcock Hill in Benton PA re being professionally measured for stock fit.
http://www.woodcockhill.com/trygun.html
If necessary they also have the ability to bend stocks for cast & drop.

Black Fly

In your situation normal rules may not apply.

This year at SCI we had two people in the booth that had trigger "finger issues", similar to yours.

Also I have done work with handgun shooters that had trigger and other hand issues.

Sometimes changes need to be made. Not everybody can order off the rack...

In your case, one thing that can be done is to have the double rifle front trigger, fitted or "bent" for lack of a better word, farther to the rear, as well as some stock adjustments.

I have always been confused about this as my rifles,shotguns and double rifles all have exactly the same length of pull and feel quite comfortable that way. I always have thought that there was only one correct way to mount a gun to diminish the recoil as much as possible. Since very few of my body parts,arms ,necks,and such change very little in respect to length I have always assumed this would mean whatever you mounted you did it the same way. The next thing I believed was there was a sight picture that should be seen whatever the weapon that would place the projectile on the target.The best set of instructions I have ever seen for stock fit were those supplied by Sabi in Africa. I cannot even conceive of how anyone could become comfortable with weapons with different lengths of pull. Of course I have only been shooting for a little over 60 years so maybe someday I will catch on how to do it 'properly'.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I have always been confused about this as my rifles,shotguns and double rifles all have exactly the same length of pull and feel quite comfortable that way. I always have thought that there was only one correct way to mount a gun to diminish the recoil as much as possible. Since very few of my body parts,arms ,necks,and such change very little in respect to length I have always assumed this would mean whatever you mounted you did it the same way. The next thing I believed was there was a sight picture that should be seen whatever the weapon that would place the projectile on the target.The best set of instructions I have ever seen for stock fit were those supplied by Sabi in Africa. I cannot even conceive of how anyone could become comfortable with weapons with different lengths of pull. Of course I have only been shooting for a little over 60 years so maybe someday I will catch on how to do it 'properly'.

Nah. Your 60 years of shooting are being over shadowed by the lack of water in your area due to that pecan orchard sucking it all up.....

I have been watching this thread closely to see if anyone has a definitive answer. I have always used 13.5" with my bolt rifles. That is long as I can go and still reasonably work the bolt with the rifle in shooting position. My O/U shotgun is a hair over 14", and it seems fine for it's single trigger. When I installed a decent recoil pad on my Sabatti 450 NE, I kept the factory 15" pull and that is a tad long. I have no issues with pulling the triggers once I get the rifle into position, but it often hangs up as I am shouldering it. So I will cut the stock another half inch and re-fit the recoil pad.

I don't really understand pecans either, but they seem to have had a good crop this year at least looking at the trees. For some reason they don't seem to water like they once did it looks like a different pattern to me and the mosquitos aren't nearly as bad as they were 30+ years ago when I came here. Isn't rain that wet stuff that comes from clouds sometimes. Seems like I remember it,but that may have been from years ago in Pennsylvania.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
[QUOTE]

Lastly less length of pull. Although I forget the reason for this. But there is a reason. I can't remember it.

Any top rank gunmaker like Holland's will be able to fit you for both a side-by-side game gun and a side-by-side double rifle.

This is not what Holland & Holland staff told me! I visited their gun room in London, Bruton Street, last month on my way to the airport after a business trip. I handled several of their double rifles, both the "Royal" model and the "round action" model, absolutely fabulous guns!!! Anyway, the guy I talked to told me that double rifles tend to be very similar to shotguns, or actually slightly longer, with respect to LOP.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I don't really understand pecans either, but they seem to have had a good crop this year at least looking at the trees. For some reason they don't seem to water like they once did it looks like a different pattern to me and the mosquitos aren't nearly as bad as they were 30+ years ago when I came here. Isn't rain that wet stuff that comes from clouds sometimes. Seems like I remember it,but that may have been from years ago in Pennsylvania.

I agree.A few of these posters will tell the gunmaker how to make the stock and rifle even though they have very little if any offhand rifle shooting experience or gun building experience.They will also tell him how to cut the chamber,what kind of wood to chose etc...and if the guy cant get it done in a hurry they will want a refund. If they then shoot it at the range and for whatever reason on earth it shot to the left or right or low or high they will blame the stock or the LOP or the chamber or the drop or anything. Not to mention the stock and rings breaking(RIP).

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I go much shorter on a bolt rifle than a double rifle or shotgun. About 1.25" shorter for a bolt. With a bolt rifle over 14.5" I am unable to operate the bolt adequately while shouldering the rifle.

My gun smith prefers the length of pull a little shorter for that exact reason

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

[

Imo, it is important agree with the gun smith where that top indicating line is measured from. I line it up with the bead in inside of rear sight v.

I have my LOP set about 1 to 1 1/2 inches longer on a double, than a bolt gun.


Works pretty well for me.

quote:

This is not what Holland & Holland staff told me!

I knew that I couldn't remember the reason why!

And it seems i must have also confused if it were shorter or longer.

It was a long time ago!

Maybe I could understand this if someone could describe to me what is different in the way you mount a rifle or a double gun. Exactly WHAT do you do differently or where exactly different do you place the butt. Someone that is knowledgeable should be able to tell me this. I have been curious about this my entire adult life.

Zim I'll give it a try, and fully anticipate to be dragged over a few coals but what the hell here goes.
First let me say that I am a shotgun shooter who happens to also shoot rifles. Therefore I shoot them the same way and go about setting up my rifles the same as my shotguns.
Gun fit as is being discussed in this thread is somewhat new to our American shores. We took hunting our store bought factory made rifles and shotguns all with pretty much the same length of pull and fitted our selves to them regardless of our stature. It was our competitive shotgun shooters and those that could afford be-spoke English guns that started to spread the word about individualized gun fitting to the rifle world.
Most rifle shooters while standing almost perpendicular to the target and their weight slightly aft will bring their rifle up and back into their shoulder then lower their head on to the stock and aim. This type of gun mount will accommodate different size shooters to the same gun. Shotgun shooters starting from a unmounted gun standing somewhat squarer to the target with their weight moving forward, will push the gun forward and roll their shoulders into the gun at the same time while focusing on the target. If done properly the gun will come into the shoulder, your head on the stock and your eye aligned with the rib all at the same time. Proper gun fit, LOP, cast, pitch, drop at heal and comb and even toe out will all contribute to a good gun mount. I have attached a you tube video of Micheal Yardley a well know English shooter, instructor and author demonstrating a good shotgun mount.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfmFXDnKRmg

The technique demonstrated is for shooting birds and clays with a shotgun from a unmounted gun. I will argue that when hunting a rifle when shooting off hand should be mounted the same way. This technique really only applies to off hand shooting as the other rifle shooting positions are unique to the art of rifle shooting. This technique would be somewhat difficult to manage if ones rifle did not fit properly. If you have ever tried to mount a rifle or shotgun that has a stock much too long you will know what I am speaking of.
For the sake of this discussion the stock dimensions on my guns very somewhat and for a reason. I am 6'1, long arms and big shoulders, my sporting clays gun's LOP is 15 3/8", but my field guns are all 14 3/4" this is to accommodate different body positions and different weight clothes while hunting. My waterfowl gun is even shorter at 14 1/2" as I'm hunting in much colder weather.
My rifle's LOP are all 14 3/4" and my double has cast that if I had the where with all I would also put into my rifles.
I hope this helps more than confuses. Perhaps it will get more people to weigh in and offer their insights.

An am no expert here, but here is what I plan to do and why.

I like my bolt guns at 13.5." It is a good compromise between working the bolt and keeping the scope out of my face.

I like my single trigger OU shotgun at 14". Seems to work well.

I plan to set my DR at 14.5" for the front trigger and 13.5" for the rear. Right now the front trigger is at 15" and the stock often hangs up on my shoulder as I bring the rifle to bear. If 14.5" clears my shoulder then that LOP will be fine and should be a good compromise between trigger LOPs. If 14.5" is still to long I'll go to 14" to the front trigger as I know that works. It makes the rear trigger LOP a little shorter than I like, but the again the rear trigger on a DR is pulled a little up and back vs just back like the front trigger.

All this has convinced me of one thing. I shall leave my stocks alone and be satisfied that what I have is right for me. Absolutely nothing I have read here explains in any way why double rifles stocks should be longer than bolt rifles so mine shall remain the same. I have had excellent hunting success all my life whether here or in Africa and on any type of game but dove. I have a problem with dove and some other gamebirds but it has absolutely nothing to do with stock configuration and everything to do with lead. I'm extremely poor at estimating it and consistently shoot behind the target. I have no real problems with sporting clays usually shooting a reasonable score.

Triggernometric Theorem of Zimbabwe:
A straight stocked, bolt action rifle primarily set up for scope use will have a shorter LOP
than a double rifle set up primarily for open sight use, with cast off and drop at comb.
The straight line from trigger to center of butt will be shorter in the former than the latter,
when both rifles fit the same shooter perfectly.
Corollary:
If the bolt action is set up primarily for open sight use, with proper drop and cast off,
and similar grip curve and trigger location in relation to that grip as with the open-sighted double rifle,
then the double rifle and the bolt action rifle will have same LOP, when both rifles fit the same shooter perfectly.

THIS THEOREM AWAITS PROOF. NO PRIZE WILL BE AWARDED.

Rip,
the true length of pull depends on which jewelry you wife likes. + distance of you index finger and thumb from your wallet
I hope she is enjoying the pink tanzanite. thanks again.

Thread highjacked just like my wallet was!
"Hooker" is the only kind of hooker I have done business with, and it was not bad,
until he mentioned the blow-up Ms. Piggy love doll he was carrying around in a tote bag at DSC 2014,
a gift from friends, yet for rent by the hour or by the day!
Usually when a hooker approaches me I just run ...

To distill all this down, I think LOP is correct for a double if:

1. You can naturally and easily shoulder the rifle and have the sights aligned

2. It is comfortable to pull each trigger

Just to make it simple the proper LOP for a double rifle with two triggers is when the rifle is shouldered the fore finger should rest near the first knuckle joint on the front trigger ! This gives a solid purchase on the front trigger and negates the strumming effect that causes accidental double discharges!

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