Guys:

I bought my first double rifle about a month ago. A Chapuis in 470 NE. I was thrilled with the way the rifle felt in my hands but never having shot much open sights I really didn't pay much attention to the way I nestled into the sight plane. Yesterday I took two boxes of 10 loaded Norma ammunition, soft and solid woodleighs out to shoot the double for the first time. After 8 rounds I felt like I had been in the ring with Mike Tyson. My cheek bone is still sore to the touch today. Recoil I can handle but the blow to my face is too much. It shouldn't have taken me eight rounds to figure out that the comb is too high for me to be in a comfortable position when shooting the 50 yard sight. I started paying more attention to the position of my head and found that the 200 yard leaf is the closest to being correct. Of course with that leaf the rifle shoots about 10 inches high. Short of redoing the stock what suggestions do you guys have? I want to take the rifle to Zambia in June but I won't take it the way it is a this time.

Thanks,
joec

quote:

Originally posted by joec:
Guys:

I bought my first double rifle about a month ago. A Chapuis in 470 NE. I was thrilled with the way the rifle felt in my hands but never having shot much open sights I really didn't pay much attention to the way I nestled into the sight plane. Yesterday I took two boxes of 10 loaded Norma ammunition, soft and solid woodleighs out to shoot the double for the first time. After 8 rounds I felt like I had been in the ring with Mike Tyson. My cheek bone is still sore to the touch today. Recoil I can handle but the blow to my face is too much. It shouldn't have taken me eight rounds to figure out that the comb is too high for me to be in a comfortable position when shooting the 50 yard sight. I started paying more attention to the position of my head and found that the 200 yard leaf is the closest to being correct. Of course with that leaf the rifle shoots about 10 inches high. Short of redoing the stock what suggestions do you guys have? I want to take the rifle to Zambia in June but I won't take it the way it is a this time.

Thanks,
joec

The answer is to take down the comb. You have good news here and plenty of time, so don't be down. Its a heck of a lot easier and cheaper to take down a comb than to sister in additional wood or to restock!

Does the rifle have adequate cast off for you? (I am assuming you are a righty) Or can you use a little bit more? Or less?

The reason I ask is that too thick a comb can lead to the sore cheek even if the comb height is right and taking down the comb only vertically will add thickness to the comb. If the cast was correct to begin with, it may effectively remove some, as your face will seat further to the left if only height is altered. Rather than have more cast bent in, it might be best to remove wood to reduce thickness. A good stockmaker can do this and it would be invisible.

Best to be there with the stockmaker when the wood is removed. Remove some wood, mount the rifle quickly. If its close go shoot it quickly, check for right left and up down deviation, just like you would when using a try gun for fitting a shotgun. (Of course, you need to know that the rifle will shoot to point of aim with you making yourself fit the rifle first.) Quick mounting and shooting will help reduce the tendency to fit yourself to the rifle. If its not close remove some more wood and try mounting again...repeat until perfect. Approach perfect slowly so you don't overshoot. Slightly too high a comb is more useable than too low a comb, imo.

If you stockmaker/gunmaker has a range at his shop, you can get the rifle to fit in a day. Bring plenty of ammo for shooting. Refinishing the rifle doesn't take long, a couple of weeks. If time is an issue regarding refinishing, just take the rifle hunting with a temporary finish and complete when you return.

BTW, I've done this for cast. My gunsmith has a range right outside. It took about three hours to get to the point where stock fit was goos to go and refinishing was all that was left.

JPK

Before we get into takeing off wood you can't replace, lets ask a couple questions!

#1 are you shooting from a bench?

#2 are you resting the rifle's forenen dirrectly on a sand bag?

If the answer to either of these questions is "YES" then this could be your problem. We tend to slide up on the rifle when shooting from a bench, and the rife resting dirrectly on a bag will cause the rifle to recoil sharply "UP".

If you use a standing bench, or sticks and hold the foreend as you would when shooting off hand,and rest you forhand on the bag or sticks, not the rifle. I think you will find some of the facial pain will go away. You need to pull the rifle into your shoulder, and hold the barrels at the forward end of the wood with fingers around the barrels, and lean slightly into the rifle. this will give you better recoil dirrection.

If, however, you find that the rear sight is too low, then and only then look at the stock. the Chapuis are light for caliber, so better control of the rifle is the first order of business!

.............Good luck, and congratulations on your new double rifle!

MacD37:

I did shoot the rifle off of three-legged sticks with my hand under the rifle just as I would in Africa. As I stated, the most comfortable shot was flipping the 200 yard leaf and raising my cheek to fit the sight. I didn't have a problem with the gun with my head up it just shot high. With my cheek down on the standing leaf the gun shot two to five inches low at fifty yards. It didn't shoot all that bad either, I just can't take the cheek pounding. I really don't want to take wood off the stock. What about having the standing sigt built up and changing the level of the front bead? Is this a possibility? I see that the sights can be removed, from the looks of them, so I was wondering if maybe they made higher ones?

Thanks,
joec

Joec,

I misunderstood your earlier post. I understood your first post to mean the comb was so high that you couldn't get low enough to nessle the bead into the V. The rifle should be shot with a solid cheek weld. This is the only foundation for repeatable shooting, especially quick shooting.

In my experience, a solid cheek weld on a rifle that fits is the ticket to the least felt recoil. When your cheek isn't firmly welded the rifle gets a running start.

In the situation I now think you're describing, the leading candidate is insufficient cast off (assuming you are a righty) requiring you to mount the rifle with your cheek too far over the comb in order to make the sights line up right and left. Also possibly too fat a comb profile. Its counter intuitive, but a thinner, sharper comb profile with proper cast slides while a thicker comb profile, especially when you need to go over the comb due to insufficient cast, will beat you. Like you describe.

I'm a lefty so will try to reverse the sight picture I have with a rifle with insufficient cast on for me to descibe wht you might be seeing with insufficient cast on for a righty. Bear with me if I get confused!

When you mount the rifle quickly, as if shooting quickly off hand, trying not to adjust to the rifle, do you see the front bead to the left of the rear sight? Try mounting the rifle with your eyes closed and then openning them, do you then see it?

How does the height of the front bead now compare to the height of the apex of the V? (Roughly, without adjusting to the rifle.)

Do you have any shotguns that fit you very well, whith which you shoot a lot and which are just natural pointers for you? Your favorite, go to shotgun maybe?

The answer to these questions will lead us to the likely next step.

JPK

JPK:

Cast seems to be fine. When I mount the rifle as if it were my favorite ou shotgun I am looking through the v to the base of the front sight. Left to right doesn't seem to be an issue. I understand positive cheek contact, but to snuggle into the v and the front bead puts pressure on my cheek bone. When the gun goes off that's the first contact. I shoot a 416 Rem Mod 70 and have shot various Ruger Rigbys in 416 as well as 458 Lott and have never had anything even close to the abuse this thing dishes out. I really don't mind the recoil of the rifle even though my shoulder is a bit sore today as well. I haven't shot very much in a year or so, so one would expect to be a bit tender at first.

joec

joec

I felt you pain. When I first test fired my 450 No2 my face was bashed as well. I had JJ Perodeau "bend" the stock to fit me better.

After bending there was no difference to the finish of the stock, but it helped the bashing alot.

Sadly the stock was broken in transit back from Africa, I had JJ restock it, further refining the fit to me.

I recommed you have the stock fitted to you.

Worth every penny.

Joec,

I suggest you compare the comb thickness on other rifles stocked for open sights, I'm thinking you might find the Chapuis a bit fuller.

Also, I think you ought to get the drop at comb measure ments from your favorite shotgun and compare it to the Chapuis. If you don't have the right tools, it can be a three handed job but its not hard to do. You can also get the cast measure ment at the same time. The way to do this is to take a yardstick or other straight piece of wood or soft metal and hols it flush along the gun's rib and overhanging the comb. From a similar point on the comb, use another ruler to drop from the bottom of the yarstick to the top of the comb. This will give you the drop. To make an apples to apples comparison, you need to account for the height from the 1/4 rib to the apex of the V.

Fpr cast measurements, you will be using the yarstick held so that the right side is centered on the rib fore and aft. Drop a mini plumbob, ie, string with a washer tied to the end down from the yarstick, secure the string to the yarstick. Then measure from the string to the center of the comb.

I'm betting that you find the drop about the same and the cast a bit less rifle to shotgun. Its not unussual to shoot well a shotgun stocked a bit high, so that the pattern thrown shoots, say, 60% high, meaning that 60% of the pattern prints over the bead. Lets you see your target better and builds in a bit of lead for rising or overhead birds. That would be too much comb height for your double rifle.

I'm hoping that an objective measurement shows that the cast off is less on the rifle. Since you want to get the rifle fitting you without removing wood, a slight bend for more cast off as descibed by 450NE No2 should bring your eye down just a bit since your cheek weld will be further down the side of the stock, where the comb is gaining width, and get your cheek bone out of the way of the comb in recoil.

Let me know how the measurements turn out.

JPK

I talked to JJ this morning. He think he knows how to solve the probelm and have it back in about a week. Thanks guys for all the help and I'll let you know how this turns out in the future.

Joec

joec,
If you are still looking for a set of dies, send "Big Mo" a PM. He has a near new set of RCBS w/shell holder...reasonable. He is very plesant to deal with.
ND

Hi Joec:

I left you a PM....

Regards... Jim P.

quote:

Originally posted by joec:
I talked to JJ this morning. He think he knows how to solve the probelm and have it back in about a week. Thanks guys for all the help and I'll let you know how this turns out in the future.

Joec

So tell us what JJ thinks the the issue is and what he's going to do to resolve it!

JPK

JPK:

Drop the stock 1/4 in and will be back in a week. Very reasonable on the price as well. JJ says I won't be able to see a difference as far as looks. Very pleasant person to deal with.

joec

Bend or take wood off and the refinish?

Yes, JJ is a very nice fellow to deal with and knows what he is doing.

Personally, if he's taking wood off, I would be there to try the rifle as he progresses. He has a shooting range right out the back door too.

Good luck.

JPK