450NE or 470 and why?

Come on. This has been beaten so much it's beyond beating. You're just a trouble maker.

As has been concluded to the absolute answer before, the 470 NE.

That should get the 450 boys kicked into gear.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Come on. This has been beaten so much it's beyond beating. You're just a trouble maker.

As has been concluded to the absolute answer before, the 470 NE.

That should get the 450 boys kicked into gear.

Sorry, must have missed those previous posts, but I don't mind being a trouble maker.

Better penetration from the 480grn 450s or bigger hitting surface of the 470?
Different recoil in same weight rifle?

Or just flick a coin for the decision?

If you give logical and scientific reasons for picking one or the other, the other side will just say the other one is a lot better because their uncle used one before WWII to kill the world record klipspringer.

But, bigger bullet, bigger hole, bigger KO value, more ammo in the outback, lighter rifle in the off-the-shelf stuff ... the 470 NE.

Flavor of the month club ... the 450 NE.

It's a fascinating exercise in selection, at least it was for me, someone with little DR experience. So I read, a lot (including you Will), Taylor, Boddington, Wieland, these Forums and of course PHs. Will hit all the discussion points, particularly the practicality aspect. From what I could tell the 450 Penetrates better and the rifle can be made in a trimmer, lighter, action. Also for me the availability of 458 bullets and the fact Hornady makes a darned nice loaded round for about 85 bucks/box (have you priced the Federal 470 stuff???). The PH I hunt with John Sharp likes the 470 while Ivan Carter prefers the 450.

Bottom line half the fun is deciding which one. Enjoy. jorge

In practical terms the 450NE will do anything the 470NE will,but each has it's bebefits! The 450NE can be made in a lighter livelier rifle, but the 470NE though properly heavier, might be slightly better on Elephant,but about equal on Buffalo.

I do have a 500/450 and a 470NE but for me personally I'd rather have a 450NE 3 1/4" and a 500NE 3" than a 470NE to cover both ends. For cape buffalo any thing from 450/400NE 3" up to a 500NE 3" double will do just fine. If you are an elephant hunter, then I wouldn't choose either the 450NE or the 470NE, and go right to the 500NE, and pick up a nice 9.3X74R, or 375FL double for the light double.

How's that for a long way around the barn answer!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
If you are an elephant hunter, then I wouldn't choose either the 450NE or the 470NE, and go right to the 500NE, . . .

Ahhh, sweet music to my ears and oh so correct.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
If you are an elephant hunter, then I wouldn't choose either the 450NE or the 470NE, and go right to the 500NE, . . .

Ahhh, sweet music to my ears and oh so correct.

When are you going to buy a real elephant gun, a .600 NE?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
If you are an elephant hunter, then I wouldn't choose either the 450NE or the 470NE, and go right to the 500NE, . . .

Ahhh, sweet music to my ears and oh so correct.

When are you going to buy a real elephant gun, a .600 NE?

quote:

the fact Hornady makes a darned nice loaded round for about 85 bucks/box

THIS! I own a 9,3 bolt gun and an 8-bore single. Both are right for what they are....a general cartridge that can be used for elephant in a pinch and the stopper when the SHTF. Either the .450 or .470 fills the gap in the middle quite well...but filling a whole culling belt for under $170 is very appealing and gives the nod to the .450.

quote:

Flavor of the month club ... the 450 NE.

I agree....it is the flavor of the month...for the last 1340 months or so. I often ask myself if the .470 would ever have been deemed necessary absent a peculiar twist of British imperial history.

To answer your question with an opinion, probably not, but given our British Cousins proclivity for the complicated, I'm sure other calibers like the 450 #2, etc would have come to be and certainly the 500s and above. jorge

Hornady offers a 470 NE load for about $110.00/ box of 20. I think their 500NE offering is about $120.00 a box. They have certainly made it easier on the double fraternity in quite a few cartridges. 9.3 X 74, 450/400, 450 X 3 1/4, 470NE and 500NE. Maybe 375 Flanged?? Good stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

the fact Hornady makes a darned nice loaded round for about 85 bucks/box

THIS! I own a 9,3 bolt gun and an 8-bore single. Both are right for what they are....a general cartridge that can be used for elephant in a pinch and the stopper when the SHTF. Either the .450 or .470 fills the gap in the middle quite well...but filling a whole culling belt for under $170 is very appealing and gives the nod to the .450.

quote:

Flavor of the month club ... the 450 NE.

I agree....it is the flavor of the month...for the last 1340 months or so. I often ask myself if the .470 would ever have been deemed necessary absent a peculiar twist of British imperial history.

Hey Will, Ian Nychens preferred the 450. his first a 450#2 is in the Zambezi and his second was a 450 3.25in.

For lots of shooting can't beat the .458 bullet selection. and brass is cheaper in 450 3.25.

Mike

Mike

The difference between the REAL world performance of these two calibers is the difference between a fine line and a pubic hair.

They both do just about exactly the same thing on game. With modern bullets the penetration "issue" with a .470 is null and void. If you need more thump than a .450 can offer go straight up to a .500.

These calibers are just to close to worry about. There is no practical difference between the two in regards to performance on game.

The .450 offers a slightly better (as in more bullet styles available) and cheaper bullet selection. The end.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
If you are an elephant hunter, then I wouldn't choose either the 450NE or the 470NE, and go right to the 500NE, . . .

Ahhh, sweet music to my ears and oh so correct.

When are you going to buy a real elephant gun, a .600 NE?

I am not man enough to handle a .600 NE, I have to stick with the pip squeak calibers.

Howdy,

I am not well known in this neighborhood of the forums but I will add something I think about in caliber slection of firearms. I travel the world quite a bit. Therefore I always consider how easy it is in other nations to find ammo for the guns that I may be carrying. It has been my experience that ammunition such as .30-06, .300 Win., .375 H&H, .458 Win, and .470 NE are some of the most common calibers the world over. If you become seperated from ammo and need to buy or borrow more with these calibers you stand a chance. Less common calibers and you may have the most beautiful hunting club in the area. I am sure the .450 is a wonderful weapon but for insured usefulness I would by the .470 NE.

Ben

One thing I do like about the way my Heym 88 / 470NE shoots is it chrono's Hornady's 500 gr ammo @ 2150 FPS and I have chrono'd a box of Federal Woodleighs at 2200 FPS.
No concerns about velocity of the factory ammo I have tried out of my rifle.
I do like the 450NE as it was the first smokeless offering. Some history there!

Question:

there is only about .025" difference is body diameter, why would a 450 be able to be built in a smaller, lighter action? The recoil will be about the same, the ME is about the same, so why the difference?

I confess, I have a 470; but the ones I have handled all seem about the same size and balance and weight. Educate me if you would.

regards,

Rich

You're close Rich... It's .016 differance. Not enough to worry about in reality. It's only for the worry warts sitting back in their arm chairs.

I'm about ready to call B.S. on the need to buy ammo if the airlines loose it and not your rifles. How many actually have had their ammo lost enroute to a hunt? It's a concern but so is denge fever or malaria..

6 of one..........The up side to the .470 is ammo availability. The up side to the .450s is cheap and available bullets for reloading. Performance???? No difference....at least not worth mentioning. If you really like to shoot your gun a lot and reload I'd take a good look at one of the .450s. $25 per box 350 grain Hornadys are pretty hard to beat for plinking fun and practice. As are the 480 and 500 grain Hornadys cheaply found in .458. Any of the others (.465, .470, .475s, .476) not so much. For me part of my appeal to a .458 double is that everyone has a .470. Not everyone has a .500/450!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Not everyone has a .500/450!!!

Brett

Really? I do..

In the modern $20,000.00 and under doubles, i doubt there is any difference in the size of the gun between these two cartridges. In fact, it would appear that even the 500's use the same frame. I would also suspect the 470 weighs less than a 450 due to less material in the barrels if the tubes have the same OD. In vintage guns there may be a difference. There has been 450 X 3.25 ammo on the self at the local Cabellas for months but no 470. They were discounting it at one time about $10-15.00 a box. Just not a lot of 450's out there. Ruger my be changing that with their inexpensive #1 offering and the Sabattis becoming available.
I believe I would have bought a 450 if they were more available when I bought my 470. My decision was really based on a good deal I stumbled across. I am happy, none the less.
My door bell is ringing and it is my son, off to shoot some pigs or at least try! IT is a little after 4.00 am and COLD!

EZ l

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Not everyone has a .500/450!!!

Brett

Really? I do..

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
When are you going to buy a real elephant gun, a .600 NE?

The reason people call a 600NE an elephant gun is because it weighs as much as a new born elephant, and kicks like a 505 howitzer.

..................

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

I agree....it is the flavor of the month...for the last 1340 months or so. I often ask myself if the .470 would ever have been deemed necessary absent a peculiar twist of British imperial history.

Tendrams, if you are referring to the 450 Ban being the twist, it had nothing to do with the 470NE, as it was introduced before the ban, and the reason it became so popular was because if was open to the trade rather than being a proprietary cartridge like most of the others in that class of cartridges!

The 470NE was introduced in 1907, and opened to the trade, while the ban on .450 bore in India, and the Sudan was in 1909, had zero to do with the introduction of the 470NE being introduced or so popular. It was popular because you could have about any brand rifle made for that cartridge, and the ammo could be purchased directly from the ammo company. With the proprietary cartridges you had to buy it from the gun company who made your rifle.

OK....but the ban must surely have contributed to the popularity of the .470 two years later. Combine that with the rightly noted proprietary nature of the .450 and you have a recipe for something that is perfectly serviceable being passed over for something else basically on the basis of dubious business decisions by Rigby and legal technicality.

Edit: I am not slamming the .470 mind you but just saying that the conditions that gave rise to its popularity obviously no longer apply and that there are cost factors and bullet variety issues that might make it less attractive than the .450 to a great many people.

I would also agree with the post above that there is almost certainly no difference in the actions chosen for a .450 vs. the .470 (or the .500 for that matter) in anything but the highest-end doubles these days. Frankly, given what I perceive to be the tendency of most sub $20K double companies to build actions lighter than was historically common, I think that makes the .450 an even BETTER choice today. In short, given that most actions are built lighter than historically common, which cartridge do you think is likely to yield a better balanced rifle with the weight "between the hands" a 24" .450, a 26" .470, or a 24" 500?

500 NE is the answer.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
When are you going to buy a real elephant gun, a .600 NE?

The reason people call a 600NE an elephant gun is because it weighs as much as a new born elephant, and kicks like a 505 howitzer.

..................

True and
a)both are "cute" in their own way
AND
b)give new meaning to "awwww and shock".

Besides - with a 600 you can:
1)store your favorite cigars;
2)clip the ends of two at the same time by closing the breech;
3)honestly say to the wife "Honey, I'm taking the 20 gauge out for sum huntin'. Be back in 14 days";
4)cause lethal injury to game sought by simply throwing a cartridge and hitting a vital area (or as my dad says, simply take one out and show it - the creature will die of fright);
5) use a fired case to perform punch biopsies of even the largest nevus

The list is nearly endless ...

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
500 NE is the answer.

For killing what, paper targets

.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
500 NE is the answer.


For killing what, paper targets

Express_Rifles'

I already have your giggle buddy 500N on my Ignore list and now you've made it there as well. I wish the two of you the best with each other, as I won't be seeing posts from either of you in future. As for killing, well I'll match mine to the both of you anytime.

Anytime Lionhunter anytime Ill be in Reno and I bet dollars to doughnuts in your case to sweeten the pot and another shoe string double for your collection I can not only out wit but say this out you in every aspect of life

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Hey Will, Ian Nychens preferred the 450. his first a 450#2 is in the Zambezi and his second was a 450 3.25in.

For lots of shooting can't beat the .458 bullet selection. and brass is cheaper in 450 3.25.

Mike

Mike

Nychens would have forgotten more about ele than all of us would know collectively.

I'll back his judgment.

Tendrams,

true, but none of the others caught on long term. You could just get a 470 from anybody, and ammunition was readily available. These days, a good 500 +/- grain cast GC bullet for shooting, and the factory softs and solids for hunting does it.

Rich

Wright wrote in his books that the .450NE would be his pick for a new DR in the .450-.470 class. Seems I have read that alot recently.

Maybe I need to get a 470NE to compare myself

On the other hand, I was thinking I need to sell off a few of my "under 600" DRs to finance my upcoming elephant hunt...

ISS - please don't offer to head over to the Boise Cabelas to do some scouting - that would only get me into more trouble both financially and domestically!

Guys,
The 500 is not a consideration and I'm probably steering towards the 470 due to the stock of Norma cases and the RCBS Dyes I retained after my last one.
Just considering the 450 and just recently purchased a packet of Hornady ammo to try out a VC 450NE rifle.
This round does interest me.

Last hour buff with 470.

Would it have been the second to last hour buff with a .450?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
It's a fascinating exercise in selection, at least it was for me, someone with little DR experience. So I read, a lot (including you Will), Taylor, Boddington, Wieland, these Forums and of course PHs. Will hit all the discussion points, particularly the practicality aspect. From what I could tell the 450 Penetrates better and the rifle can be made in a trimmer, lighter, action. Also for me the availability of 458 bullets and the fact Hornady makes a darned nice loaded round for about 85 bucks/box (have you priced the Federal 470 stuff???). The PH I hunt with John Sharp likes the 470 while Ivan Carter prefers the 450.

Bottom line half the fun is deciding which one. Enjoy. jorge

Thanks for your post jorge,
I met John in camp on one Safari and he noted his use of the 470. I my self had one at the time.
During the weekend I fired a couple rounds of HORNADY 470 through a mates Chapuis with good results including a MV of 2100fps.
Your point of a more trim rifle can be built with the slender 450 round is a point of consideration.

Will,
But, bigger bullet, bigger hole, bigger KO value, more ammo in the outback, lighter rifle in the off-the-shelf stuff ... the 470 NE.

Makes a lot of sense, particularly for someone who has spent time with Ele in the Jess.

Regarding "building" a slimmer rifle with a 450 relative to a 470. I suppose you could however that would be an expensive proposition to have a scaled frame double fabricated for the 450 cylinder. It would work for the 450 / 400 as well. Perhaps Butch Searcy could do it.
I think you will find the Heym, Merkel, K gun and Chapuis all have much smaller frames than traditional vintage doubles.
I am going to have to compare the Heym in my safe to various 20 gauge doubles.
Butch might be the man to provide a scaled 450NE! How about one in his new 3rd rising bite
at 9.5-10 lbs?

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Regarding "building" a slimmer rifle with a 450 relative to a 470. I suppose you could however that would be an expensive proposition to have a scaled frame double fabricated for the 450 cylinder...I think you will find the Heym, Merkel, K gun and Chapuis all have much smaller frames than traditional vintage doubles.

That was my point above...that most frames are probably scaled better for the .450 than for the .470 these days.