Good evening

I took my Merkel 140A, 500 NE to put a few rounds down range today.

First shot of the day fired the right barrel (front trigger) no problems, went to the rear trigger and it would not fire.

Opened the action, it was still cocked on the left side! Closed the action, still no bang. Did this several times with no result.

It was almost like the trigger was stuck to the rear and unable to break the sear?

I was finaly able to get a "click" on a snap cap when taking the rifle down.

Now here is the sticky bit!!

On the first shot I had a case seperation in the right barrel. I did not notice this until looking for the brass case I had ejected when breaking the action to check in the left barrel / cartridge.

Do you guys tink this is in anyway related or just one of those things ie two seperate happenings?

I have a hunt in Zim early April for tuskless and this 500 was going with me. Is this a quick fix? We are very limited for gunsmiths in Aus.

Opinions are appreciated

Regards

Stu

I would first think that you probably need to shoot the gun some more after a good cleaning and see if you get the same results.

Next, I would evaluate the ammo. Have you tried more than one type of brass? Were those handloads you were using on your first outings.

DR's can sometimes be finicky with brass and primers. I assume there was no indentation of any sort on the left barrel cartridges? Or would the trigger just not pull?

We can probably offer more suggestions once we know more regarding ammo, indentation, handloads or factory, etc.

Let us know. Mike

Next time it happens make sure the safety did not re-engage.

JD

I would not take that rifle to hunt dangerous game as soon as this April. Unless you can fix the problem in time to shoot it enough to be 100% confident with it.

465H&H

465H&H is 100% correct and I would ask mdstewart to whom it can be sent immediately for a good once-over by a qualified, competent DR gunsmith familiar with Merkels.

One problem I heard a couple of Merkel's having over here was grease in the action collecting on the left side from the gun laying down and stopping the left action working.

I would at least get it looked at by someone competent.


Brass - was it new brass or had been fired before.

If new, that is unusual unless undersize.

I would try a different make of brass.

Cheers guys

MD I dont believe it is an ammo thing, the trigger would not pull! It would appear the trigger is not as far forward in the trigger guard as it should be??? Just feels as if it's only half way there? Hard to explain, just a feel thing.

JD absolutley no chance of this, I worked the saftey several times.

465 You are correct, might be the 416 taking the trip again. Though I realy wanted to use the 500!

CCM It would appear the Merkel gunsmith is the only sensible course of action, trouble is in Australia a good smith might be thousands of km away. Time is running out for me unfortunatley.

Anyway, I appreciate the feed back, certainly interested in hearing from anyone with a similar experience?

Good shooting

Stu

stuey

Where in Australia are you ?

I can think of one good DR gunsmith in most states.

It's only a couple of days in the post to most of them if that.

PM me if you want.

If you had a head seperation with new ammo or brass on the first shot you have problems beyond the left barrel not firing. On a straight walled case like a 500 brass should last a long time without a seperation. As to the left barrel not firing and if you heard a click and the gun was still cocked afterwards this could be very dangerous. It could be trash or grease causing the problem but I would have the gun taken apart by a good gunsmith to see what is wrong. 465H&H is right don't take this gun on a hunt until you are 100% sure it will work. Especially on a tuskless hunt. They get really cheaky as they say!

No worries, just pop into a Cabelas and pick up a Sabatti 500.

Cheap and reliable.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Hope you get yours fixed in time!

Give the "rearhalf" of the rifle a hard shaking and see if anything in there is loose, ie maybe a broken part.

If not put the rifle together and open and close it a few times. Are you opening it all the way?
Is there any binding.
Are both hammers cocking.

If you put pressure on the back of the rear trigger when you open the action, does it make any difference, ei will the left barrel then cock/fire???

Good evening gents

500N: Nice to hear from you, Thanks for the thought however the rifle is carried right side down or vertical in the cabinet.
The guys in Perth here (Roy Alexander and Dog Barnes) suggested Mails in Victoria. Spoke with them today and will send off next week for look see.
Brass was hand loaded (4th time) and was made by HH in Germany. Load was 106 grains 2209, compressed with 570 grain Woodie Hydrostatic. I honestly feel this seperation was due to stress during the sizing of the case. Maybe a little more lube next time!

Srose: Thanks for the input, as mentioned above I think the case issue is due to stress on the case during sizing as it seperated about 12mm (half inch) above the rim, right where a lot of the sizing occurs in my press.
I agree totaly on the course of action, looks like the rigby gets the honours again

JCS271: Nothing in a big bore double is cheap in Australia!

450 No2: No loose items when shaken. When I take the rifle down and then reassemble I am able to get the rear trigger to break but only with a lot of pressure on the trigger and then the trigger still feels like it is too far to the rear.

Cheers for the input guys, glad it happened here and not during the moment of truth!

Regards

Stu

stuey, did you chrono your loads? My 500NE cases resize very easily, but it turns out that I may be below the magic 2100. I have to chrono these again. That being said, case head separation is pretty difficult in a case that is pretty much straight walled, unless you are into pretty serious pressures. Just MHO.
It sounds like your rear trigger is not resetting. When you do get it to cock, can you shoot that barrel first?
Peter.

Stuey,

If your cases had been fired 4 times and you were loading a heavy charge with a Wooleigh Hydro then you may have had high pressures. If you gun has any excess headspace or barrels are not square to breech then cases can stretch and separate after 4 rounds. Had a 470 one time that caes failed on the 4th round. Was the brass only fired in your gun?
The left barrel issue needs to be checked out properly.
Good luck with it!

Sam

Hey Peter

Loads are running at almost 2100 fps out of the 24 inch barrel, Chrono read 2070 at 7 metres back from the sensors. I am only running 106 grains of ADI 2209, you guys call it 4350.
Running 106 grains behind the Woodliegh 570 RNSN only gave me 2040 fps at 7 metres and 104.5 grains behind a Wooliegh 570 FMJ gave me 2030 fps at 7 metres.
So with the hydros I was getting another 40 fps! I was happy with that as I was getting much closer to the 2100 fps mark.
Im not so sure about pressure problems as 1. The primers are not flattened out, and 2. The projectile has many drive bands along the shank, which is 0.509 unlike the RNSN & FMJ which if memory serves are .510, so for equal powder charge I am getting more velocity, the regulation and accuracy is 110% and these hydros cut the paper like wad cutters too!
Im not sure, but could the fact the load is compressed be related???? Will a compressed load give more pressure?

I have now just checked some of my resized brass and on some of them I can see a very faint line running around the case in the same position as the seperated case. It is almost like a very faint pencil mark and it is visible only, I cannot detect a crak with a finger nail or box cutting blade. Maybe a manufacturing fault? I will send the failed case along with a few of these ones with the rifle to the smith for his take on it.

At any rate a few questions yet to be answered, however I am very impressed with the way the hydrostatic rounds perform out of my Merkel, it is just going to have to wait a bit longer for a real penertration test.

In relation to the trigger resetting, that is possible, however when I opened the action only the right barrel ejected the spent case whilst the left side had the round still seated, only ejecting the snap cap (when trying to fault find) after tripping the sear.

Cheers

Stu

Hi Sam

As I mentioned to Peter, I am not sure it is a pressure problem, though I am new at this so anything is possible.
I did consider this before loading the hydros, but the Woodliegh catalogue states they should be run with the same powder charge as the RNSN.
Right from the start I had problems with the cartridges loaded to CIP (recomended COL) as they, unlike a round nose bullet, enguaged the lands too early and I was unable to close the action.
I spent a lot of time getting the seating depth to what I considered ok, in that I had a bit of travel for the round before the lands took up.
Changing the COL by seating deeper (Wombat rebored his chamber to suit the ammo)caused me to load a compressed load, nothing over the top like my 458 WM, but still compressed. Could this cause a pressure problem? Is a pressure problem going to cause a loss in accuracy or regulation? Trouble is the load has required no extra tweaking, is absolutley bang on for accuracy, and I get great regulation with an extra 40 FPS????
As I mentioned before the primers are not flattened in any way and dont look all that different from a cartridge that is yet to be fired?
Just reading a bit more of your comment, I see you mention excess head space could be a cause. How often would you trim your cases? I am doing it every 2 - 3 firings, that said I have not reloaded a lot of the hydro fired cases as they are new to me.

I appreciate your opinion

Regards

Stu

quote:

Originally posted by stuey:

I have now just checked some of my resized brass and on some of them I can see a very faint line running around the case in the same position as the seperated case. It is almost like a very faint pencil mark and it is visible only, I cannot detect a crak with a finger nail or box cutting blade. Maybe a manufacturing fault? I will send the failed case along with a few of these ones with the rifle to the smith for his take on it.

Stu

Stu

Sounds like your cases are just about to head sep.

You are much more likely to feel the start of a case sep inside the case than outside.

Get a piece of wire - use a cut piece of wire from a coat hangar, bend it 90 degrees and run it down the inside of the case.

Have you tried resizing LESS each time to work out how little you can get away with ?

Not all guns require full length resizing.

.

Your brass just might be thin in the web.

In my 9,3x74R with Norma brass I get 3 firings, it will usually head seperate on the 3rd firing.

In my 450 No2 with Bertram brass I have some cases that have been fired at least 20 times, still going strong.

Stuey,

Just wondering, where did you get this rifle, and do you know the history on it?

If the gun was here in the States, no problem getting it fixed in a week and back to you in plenty of time. I don't know anyone in Australia, sorry.

I don't believe it's a sear problem, but could be. It may be an ejector issue, probably a ejector timing issue. Life of brass varies based upon the load, the gun at hand, and the brass being used.

A competent gunsmith with DR's should be able to repair the gun and get in back to with time to spare if they are not too backed up with other work.

Please keep us informed. I would definitely talk with the previous owner if possible; not to complain or try to get a refund, but to gather more info.

Mike

Stuey,

If you see flattened primers in a double you are way to high a pressure for a double. Never use primer to judge pressure in a double. Hard to open is a better indicator. If you will look at the pressure data Michael and I did in the Double Rifle Bullet of the Future thread in double section you can see that Hyro bullets with same powder charge as softs has much higher pressure.

Trimming your cases will not effect headspace on a rimmed cartridge. You should not have to ever trim your cases after the first time in a double. The brass just won't last that long. If you want to check your headspace in you gun put a piece of scotch tape on the back of the case. If the gun closes easily then put another until it won't close. Measure this tape and that is your headspace.

Sam

Stuey I agree that you should be good with the banded solids, and I also agree that they are longer and must be seated deeper due to the flat nose (mine are FN's). Can you get Reloader 15 over there? That is what I use. I have not tried IMR 4350 in my 500, but have used it in my 500/416. How about H1000?
PS. I agree with the indications of case head separation being apparent on the INSIDE of the case.
Best, Peter.

Evening gents

500N: Thanks for the suggestion, I will give it a go. I have not tried resizing less but this sounds like a good idea, I will give it a go. I suppose all I really require is the bullet to be held securely, and the case has obviously fire formed to the chamber so all ok as long as I get some tension on the bullet.
Judging by what you say, it is the forces I am placing on the case during the resizing that is contributing to the weakened area?

450 No2: Yep you maybe right as I have not used the HH brass before. I use Norma and Lapua brass for my bolt rifles and my 9.3 x 62 has been good for 20 shots and only now have I annealed them, so I am sure to get plenty more out of them. These HH cases I find have beed inconsistant extruders where not all cases have needed a trim at the same time. Some seem to have stretched a lot and others hardly any???

md: No I dont have much on the rifle. I bought it through a small time dealer and was told it was a rifle from a deceaced estate. Other than that I could get no further background on it. My impression was the rifle was almost brand new, did not even look like it had been used. The only fault I could find was a loose reducer in the butt that would rattle a little, fixed it with a small screw to lock it into place.
I will have it off to the smith next week, but I have decided to focas on prep for the trip with my rigby bolt rifle. I think I have to do a fair bit to ensure I have the right reloads and regather my confidence in the rifle before I take it away, this and the fact the window is narrowing for sufficent time to have the correct paper work in place for the trip, I would rather just place my energy somewhere else.
I most certainly will keep you guys informed as to any findings, who knows if another forum member will have the same thing happen??

srose: I absolutley agree! In this case there has been no flattening of the primers, and as I mentioned before they were not dissimilar to the unfired primers.
I can say that I have not noticed any stickyness in the breaking of the rifle, and certainly no ejection issues at the range. One thing I might add was during some dry firing with full size snap caps I have had the odd occasion when the caps were not ejected and actualy fell out, I cant recall hearing the ejectors opperating either! But this could have been me not breaking the action open enough???
It is an interesting observation you have made with the pressure of the hydros being more than a soft. That said I have been running with (prior to the hydros) load data out of Mr Graeme Wright's book which are to my understanding about right for regulating most doubles, including the older doubles, without getting anywhere near danger levels.
When you consider the load for a FMJ with a steel jacket is 104.5 grains of 2209 (IMR 4350) and I have loaded only 1.5 grains more with a brass bullet carrying numerous drive bands, I cant see how I would suddenly be at dangerous levels?? However I have only been at it for a few years so learning all the time.
Great tip with the tape! In my layman way I used ink on the bullet and dropped it into the barrel which was held verticaly. I would then check the bullet for any indication of rifling. I then seated the bullet deeper into the case bit by bit until the rifling marks disappeared. Then I checked the action would close, all good.
This seemed to work, loads shot wonderfuly and as mentioned velocity was up 40 fps. I had run probably 15 - 20 of the hydros through the rifle along with at least 80 or so FMJ and RNSN before the incident.

Peter: Yes I can get the RL 15, and it is mentioned in Greame's book as a load option. I think Wombat is using the same powder for the same progi?? That said I am still not convinced that I have a pressure issue here. Is a compressed load going to cause a higher pressure peak? I know it is the best for ignition. The other thing is that it shoots like a dream in the rifle too.
I am going to pull out "Shooting The British Double" and have a flick through before lights out.

Thanks gents for the ideas and suggestions it is appreciated.

Regards

Stu

What 500N said about the wire probe is good advice. It works much better if you sharpen the tip of the wire to a knife edge, then make a 90 degree bend leaving about a 3/16" "leg" at right angles to the main part of the wire and the knife edge at right angles to the length of the case. When you scrape that knife edge along the inside of the case, if you have an incipient case head separation, it will hang up in the groove that's ocurring above the web. I find that the .303 British, in many guns, both bolts and doubles, is prone to separations. I never load one without giving the case this inspection first.

Stuey

Re your question re forces on the case during resizing.

OK, it's a 500Nitro, straight walled case in a gun that should have nice even chambers - we hope.

Now you can't just "neck resize" like a bottle neck case but you can see how little you need to resize but still chamber the cases.

The more you resize, the more you are squashing the brass down, the more it expands on firing. Every time it squashes and expands, it is being weakened
in the web area.


Re loads - use 2209, it's easy, safe and you can't overload it !!!

.

A couple of years ago, I bought a new Merkel in 470NE with ejectors. On the first trip to the range, I pulled the front trigger and it shot fine but the back trigger would not move. I took it to a local gunsmith here in central North Carolina that works on double rifles. There was a little horse shoe looking piece with a piece of piano wire soldered to it that the smith said was rigged to help prevent it from doubling. He did not like the design so we decided to leave it out since it could obviously come loose and block the sear from firing. Other than that part the internal workings were the same as my older Merkel. From then on, it worked just fine and has never doubled either.

quote:

Originally posted by Ed Scarboro:
A couple of years ago, I bought a new Merkel in 470NE with ejectors. On the first trip to the range, I pulled the front trigger and it shot fine but the back trigger would not move. I took it to a local gunsmith here in central North Carolina that works on double rifles. There was a little horse shoe looking piece with a piece of piano wire soldered to it that the smith said was rigged to help prevent it from doubling. He did not like the design so we decided to leave it out since it could obviously come loose and block the sear from firing. Other than that part the internal workings were the same as my older Merkel. From then on, it worked just fine and has never doubled either.

New as in NIB from?

stuey I mentioned Rl15 as you use less powder for the same velocity. I hate to ask this but is your sizing die set up correctly? If not this might account for the case head separation issues.
Peter.

stuey,

It sounds as though you've got a busted main action spring on the left side. It's an easy fix if you've got someone who has the part and the knowledge to fix it.

Gday

ron: Thanks for the input, I will give it a go.

500N: Cheers, just wondering if anealing of the case including the web area would be of benifit?
As for the 2209, yep, no worries here, it has worked well for my 416 as well. This relaoding is an interesting science. I have shot loads with 108 grains instead of the standard 106 grains and found no increse in velocity only recoil and a loss of POI!

Ed: I think the trigger issue is going to be something like you describe or like surestrike mentions. I should know in a week or so.

Peter: I may well dabble with some RL15 now that I have made the decision and the pressure to get loads developed in time is off.
As for the sizing die, to be honest I this is still a learning curve for me. I have set the die up the same as I have for all my other calibers. The one observation I can make is I limit the lube on the first 3rd of the case as I find I get small "bubbling" in the brass. I do notice that right in the spot of the seperation I get some binding, though this is usually rectified with some lube.
After reading "Shooting the British Double" on the weekend, I may well go with some of the suggestions in the chapter on cases and see if this changes the "feel" of the process.

Regards

Stu

quote:

Originally posted by stuey:
Gday

500N: Cheers, just wondering if anealing of the case including the web area would be of benifit?
As for the 2209, yep, no worries here, it has worked well for my 416 as well. This relaoding is an interesting science. I have shot loads with 108 grains instead of the standard 106 grains and found no increse in velocity only recoil and a loss of POI!

Stu

STUEY

DO NOT ANNEAL THE WEB AREA OF THE CASE.

(Or every case will separate !!!)

EDITED TO ADD - NEVER ANNEAL THE WEB AREA OF ANY CASE - IN FACT, ANNEALING SHOULD BE KEPT WELL FORWARD OF THE WEB AREA and on a Bottlenecked case, Annealing should go barely past the shoulder.

Reloading is interesting, I think people make it complicated by chopping and changing powders and trying to extract that last bit of velocity. Just my HO.
Work up a load that shoots / regulates, and go shooting.

If anything, the second load I work up is a lighter bullet weight as per the 75% rule
as in this country of ours, we shoot more smaller game than big game !!!

Anyway, good luck.

.

Repeat,
DO NOT ANNEAL THE WEB AREA OF ANY CASE

To do so risks destruction of the gun and greivous injury or death to the shooter.

Ouch!

I promise I will not anneal the web area...!

500N: My thoughts on the loads are exactly as you say, so I will persist with the 570 hydros, 106 grains of 2209 and fed 215 primers, but wil drop a few grains when I add a crimp and see how it travels.

ron: I promise

Best regards

Stu

Stuey

Sounds about right. Geoff (Woodleigh) and anyone else I know with a 500
all use roughly the same load, varying it only on changes of powder batch.


Sorry for the Bold, Capital Shouting in my previous post but things on the internet get
republished and republished until they become the truth and just wanted to make sure
that this didn't occur with your suggestion as
it is extremely dangerous.

.

Hey 500N, no problem, it was more a question than a suggestion

Have you run any hydros through your rifles yet?

I must say I love the way they cut the paper! Should make for a good entry / exit wound.

Cheers

Stu

quote:

Originally posted by stuey:

Have you run any hydros through your rifles yet?
Cheers

Stu

Only my 500/465 as Geoff wanted some bullets tested from a double rifle so they made some up.

I wouldn't hesitate to use them in my doubles once I had slugged the bore to get the correct bore size for that Double rifle - on the basis that the bullet are fine but the bore dimensions of English DR's to tend to vary a bit.

My 500/465 is slightly undersize in the bore and the the shank of the bullets were very slightly engraved but had no pressure problems or any issues with them, they shot really accurately and killed well.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

Sorry for the Bold, Capital Shouting in my previous post but things on the internet get
republished and republished until they become the truth and just wanted to make sure
that this didn't occur with your suggestion as
it is extremely dangerous.

.

Never apologize for that kind of advice given in exactly that way. There really ARE times when shouting is appropriate. This is one of them.

500N

Just a quick question on the hydros' did you have to seat deeper than normal in order to get them to fit? As I mentioned earlyer I found I had to seat the bullet a fair bit deeper thus the compressed loads.

Cheers

Stu

quote:

Originally posted by stuey:
500N

Just a quick question on the hydros' did you have to seat deeper than normal in order to get them to fit? As I mentioned earlyer I found I had to seat the bullet a fair bit deeper thus the compressed loads.

Cheers

Stu

I can't answer that as I didn't load them myself. That DR lives up NT way with a mate,
(even though I own it) and he loaded them.

They didn't look much different to normal one's - I had both in my pocket.

Compressing the load isn't that big an issue - I used to compress loads in my 500/450.

Sorry i couldn't be more specific.
.

Cheers mate