I would appreciate some help from some of the more knowledgeable members in determining an approximate value of my rifle for insurance purposes. I contacted a couple of dealers who said in their ads that were happy to give free estimates on values but both would only do so if I sent them the rifle. Yeah, right. Like I want to go to the trouble, expense and risk of sending this off just so they could hem and haw and try to talk me into selling it to them when I wanted it back. Anyway, I’m hoping for some real world evaluations, here.

This is a Cogswell & Harrison SxS double rifle with a boxlock action and decent but not spectacular wood (looks like English walnut). The barrels are 25” and chambered in .375 Nitro Express (.375x2&1/2 rimmed). The rifle is excellent working condition and shoots very well. There are no issues with the wood and the metal has no dings or dents but the bluing has faded on the action and there is obvious wear on the trigger guard. I do not believe the rifle has ever been refinished. It looks like old original bluing.

I’m sure this was built as a “Field Grade” gun but I would think that any English double in good shape would be worth some money. I have a letter from C&H stating that the gun was built in 1910 and sold to someone with the title of “Honorable” and I guess he was a judge or a Member of Parliament or some such thing. The letter goes on to say that the rifle was returned to the sales outlet and put on consignment in 1923. It was purchased by a man with the same name as the then Prince of Afghanistan although they could not tell me if it actually was the prince or just someone with the same name. After that they say that they lost track of the rifle until I contacted them after having bought it in California in 1989.

About five years ago I saw a dealer in such guns offer the very same rifle... exactly the same... except that the one being offered was reblued and he was asking $6,000 for it. I don’t know if that was a totally unrealistic price or a good deal. Now I am hoping someone can give me an idea what this thing is actually worth.

Anyone care to venture an opinion?

Can you post some photos?

What condition are the bores in? Any pits or frosting?

No pitting and not sure what you mean by "frosting." I think the bore is fine given that one round from each barrel will be centered on a 100 yard target 1/2" apart.

quote:

I would appreciate some help from some of the more knowledgeable members in determining an approximate value of my rifle for insurance purposes. I contacted a couple of dealers who said in their ads that were happy to give free estimates on values but both would only do so if I sent them the rifle. Yeah, right. Like I want to go to the trouble, expense and risk of sending this off just so they could hem and haw and try to talk me into selling it to them when I wanted it back. Anyway, I’m hoping for some real world evaluations, here.

You've a poor view of "dealers" then. It is a pity as some on here who could help ypu maybe are dealers and you've just offended most of them with that. A true meaningful valuation can only come from an examination of the condition of the thing.

If he is "the Hon" it means that he is the son of a Lord. British titles are Duke, Earl, Marquis, Viscount, Baron.

Winston Churchill was the son of Lord Randolph Churchill. So actually he was "the Honourable Winston Churchill.

Often these "lords" or Dukes or whatever will have a title. Such as "Duke of Rutland" but a family name such as "Manners". Or "Lord Redesdale" and a family name "Mitford".

So you can possible trace the title.

In Britain a judge is styled "his (or her) Honour" but not "the Honourable". MPs are either styled with nothing or if a member of the Queen's (or King's) Privy Council as "the Right Honourable".

So your gun's owner was the son of a peer (lord). Maybe the eldest son of a Baron or the very youngest son of another higher ranking peer (lord).

As to the gun it is a great short range pig or red deer cartridge. Big game it isn't! It is not the same as the 375 H & H Magnum but a classic equivalent of something like the 9.3 x 57 or the modern 375 Winchester.

Cogswell were a respected maker. Frosting is where the bore looks as if it has condensation on it. It isn't shiny bright, but it isn't dull and black. It is a dull matte silver.

Personally I think that Cogswell guns are every bit as good as Westley doubles. Not up there with Holland. But every bit as good as Westley.

So it is a London gun by a good, respected, second grade maker in a useful old time equivalent of the "modern" 375 Winchester calibre.

I like it.

Value? Depends on what it is ejector or non-ejector and what sort of shooting you see using it for. It would probably make a superb 50 yard wild boar or black bear or 100 yards deer rifle. Absolutely superb.

But 200 yards on anything? Probably not. The original specification was a 270 grain bullet at about 1,975 fps. So it's pretty much a short range potato thrower type of cartridge!

Can you tell us this "the Honourable" name? And any address? Maybe us in Great Britain that aren't dealers can trace the title.

I didn't mean to offend all dealers everywhere, only the two who I thought were playing games with me when all I wanted was a rough estimate of value without spending money on shipping and risking loss through the USPS (oh, now I've offended THEM by suggesting there are thieves working there) or offering the rifle for sale after I told them it was not.

Anyway, the original owner was a G. Charteris who paid 26 Guineas for the rifle in 1910 and sold it for 30 Guineas (must have been inflation) in 1920 to S. Habibullah. This was the name of the ruling family in Afghanistan and one of members had a first name starting with S although I can't recall it now and there's no proof the buyer was this person or any relation. Just interesting.

A man (we assume) called "the Honourable" G. Charteris in 1910 is the starting point. Women can also be called "the Honourable" if they are daughters of Lords. But let's assume that it isn't Britain's equivalent of Annie Oakley!

The big help being that style "the Honourable". It gets rid of lots of other people just called George Charteris or Gervais Charteris for the reasons mentioned in the earlier post.

For that you can thank the clerk who made the entry in "Coggie's" ledger! If he had omitted it and just put "G Charteris" it would be needles in haystacks with a lesser certainty of it being as below.

Enjoy!

Charteris is the family name of the Earls of Wemyss. Pronounced "weemz". So you and I need to find a younger son (hence "the Honourable") with the first given name beginning "G" who must have been an adult in 1910.

So, to ramble and self-repeat as I write, as he is "the Hon" he must be a YOUNGER SON of the Earl as the OLDEST SON would be styled a "Lord" (or "Baron") as in "Lord Elcho". So thus far I think he may be the son (or grandson) or related to either. That means a parent with more than one male child!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F..._10th_Earl_of_Wemyss

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H..._11th_Earl_of_Wemyss

Thus far I think after I read the write up on the 11th Earl (you will see it mentions that the 10th Earl had FIVE SONS) I thought it is likely that "the Hon. G" is perhaps one of those younger sons as the oldest son would by styled "Lord". As he was as "Lord Elcho". So one of the sons of the 10th Earl maybe?

They would be old enough in 1910 certainly. But then so might any children of the 11th Earl. And the wikipedia gives no initials of any other than the first son for either the 10th or 11th Earls! Full stop! Bother!

But then I tried the links to other websites at the bottom of the write up on the 11th Earl. Finding an internet resource that actually gives one hundred and twenty of these people with that name, Charteris, of that family. However there is only one male "G Charteris" listed. He is one of the sons of the 11th Earl.

http://www.thepeerage.com/p10641.htm#i106405

And, lucky you, he is born in 1886 so it makes him twenty-four years old in 1910. Old enough may well be good enough.

So. I think it probably might well be this man: Captain Hon. Guy Lawrence Charteris b. 23 May 1886, d. 21 September 1967. These details cut and pasted from that website mentioned above.

"Captain Hon. Guy Lawrence Charteris was born on 23 May 1886. He was the son of Hugo Richard Charteris, 11th Earl of Wemyss and Mary Constance Wyndham. He married Frances Lucy Tennant, daughter of Francis John Tennant, on 23 July 1912. He married Violet Porter, daughter of Alfred Charles Masterton Porter, on 5 October 1945. He died on 21 September 1967 at age 81".

Certainly the age is about right. Does his military training, joins his regiment, gets posted abroad. It would make him, IF it is him, as I wrote, an age of twenty-four years old when he bought the weapon. Seems to fit! But 2 + 2 doesn't always equal 4! Anyway hope it helps! All the best from a one-time, not too successful, gun dealer!

Next question. What ranges do the sights go up to? I'm thinking use on soft-skinned game and I'm thinking India. But if the sights go up to 1,000 yards (although it'd be a feeble velocity by then) I'm thinking Africa. I'll explain that later. But it is one of the the classic ways to tell an "African" rifle from an "Indian" rifle.

Masterful discourse!

rgds Ian

Hmm! More interesting. Good fun this internet! Found this:

Fleming, Ian Lancaster

Son of Maj. Valentine Fleming (1882-1917), DSO, a Conservative MP, who was killed in World War I, and Evelyn Beatrice St. Croix Rose (1885-1964).

Married (24.03.1952, Jamaica) Anne Geraldine, Lady Rothmere, widow of 3rd Baron O'Neill and eldest daughter of Hon. Guy Charteris ; one son.

So. The former owner of your rifle, if it is "the Honourable G. Charteris" as I suppose, was Ian Fleming's father-in-law.

To check out "the Honourable Guy" you need to access a copy of the British Army "Army List" for anythime from about 1908 to 1912. I think that will give you his regiment, if he was in the Army at that time, and from that you can get a reasonable idea also of where he was posted.

If it is your man he had some well connected friends. Not many have a British Prime Minister as a guest at their wedding. Below opens to an Adobe image of a press cutting from 1912:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/a...57C2A9619C946396D6CF


Some people charge for all this! The rest is up to you. I'm bored with it now...but I'll come back on the matter of the sights if you wish.

I appreciate the information. It was quite interesting.

The rifle has a 3-leaf sight arrangement, with one standing and two folding. They are simply stamped 1, 2 & 3 with no indication of the ranges represented. I have sort of imagined they were 100, 200 and 300 yards (or meters) but that's just speculation.

Still haven't had anyone offer a ballpark estimate on value...

In Africa it was the practice, on safari, to shoot at herds of wildebeeste or other animals at long distance. 1,000 yards. "Browning" (fired a half dozen or more rounds) the mass of the herd rather than trying to hit an idividual animal.

Of the half dozen or so shots fired enough would hit some animals to either kill or wound enough to "follow up" for the meat supply. Thus the party could be kept in food.

In India where most hunting parties went home for tea...somewhere or other...this was not needed at all.

So "African" rifles have sights for 1,000 yards and "Indian" rifles don't need to. And as they cost more why pay for what you would never use?

My old Ross had these long range sights but I've seen other Ross rifles just with three blades. These being for India or Great Britain.