I have some pretty basic questions about DR's as some have put in another discussion i started that many will be willing to help and answer...thank you to those who will.

What are people refering to when they speak of the gun "coming off the face"

Will a new DR, example a new Merkel, come regulated from the factory. Will a gun come with a target showing a group?

What kind of value is added to a DR if it has a mercury recoil tube added or does this devalue the gun? I will be useing the rifle for hunting so as much as i will appreciate as a show piece, i will also want it to have it as good a hunter as possible.

What kind of recoil difference is felt between .470 and .500?

Is .470 factory ammo more readily available? I assume it will be less expensive.

Is $8K a price for a new Merkel .500 that i can expect to see in year or so from now or should i jump on this now?

Any direction as to books, videos, etc. that would help in my education of DR's will be highly regarded and followed up on.

Thank you to those who take the time to help me.

Get a copy of:

SHOOTING THE BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE - 3rd EDITION Graeme Wright
Hard cover with dust jacket, 288 pages, 10½ x 7 in. 146 illustrations including 16 colour plates with fine photography by Les O'Rourke.
Published in 2009, ISBN 978-0-646-50801-6.
New chapters on the Paradox, many new and updated tables & loads. Appendix includes British cartridge dimensions, Sources for components & services, Early ICI, Kynoch & Eley catalogue statistics, powder equivalents, etc..

I guess we are a lazy bunch here I'v been looking at this post for a couple days thinking someone would answer it.

First get the book Bwana_Dave reccomends.

1 off face, term used to discribe a loose double rifle. As it were the barrels have a seperation from the fences. This is due to wear in the lock but mostly on the hinge pin. Easly fixed by replacing or re indexing the hinge pin.

2 A new double will be regulated from the factory. The maker may or not supply targets and load info. This information is not typicly hard to find out but for me it would only serve as a starting point for my handloads.

3 A mercury recoil reducer added after regulation can cause problems with regulation. after all regulation is all about recoil and harmonics and the mercury tube changes all that. my understanding is Quite often you can find a new regulation load after adding the recoil reducer and if you could supply the load and maybe a bit of ammo with the rifle when you sell it then it won't hurt the value at all. If this work was done on a double and it were unknown if it would regulate and had'nt been test fired you could'nt get me to buy it.

4 .470 & .500 I don't know never fired a .500

5 .470 was pritty much the first of the old British express rounds that was reserected by the U.S. manufacturers. For that reason you will likely find more .470 ammo and components floating around out there but wear theres a double rifle theres a way to come up with ammo for it. With the low pressure of these rounds I would think fifty pieces of brass would be close to a lifetime supply surley 100 rounds would. If you only got 3 or 4 reloadings out of them thats a lot of elephant and buff.

6 Keep in mind that most double rifles are built in Europe. On my last hunt on the contenant I exchaned euros at $.78 now there at $1.40 or so I don't think anythings getting cheaper I'd get what I can now.

I am not sure that you would want to jump straight to a 470 or a 500,I would personally think starting with a caliber such as 9.3 x 74 would be a smarter choice,gets you used to DR's and does'nt break the bank as much,but if you are used to heavy recoiling rifles then you shouild do o.k with either,keep in mind that the weight of the gun and how well it would fit you has a bearing on felt recoil,I did own a Merkel 470 with a recoil reducer in the stock,it shot real well ! comparing the recoil of that rifle to my Heym 470,the heym hurts a little more and is a lighter rifle,
you have not posted your location,the ideal solution would be to get together with AR members in your area,and inspect close up some rifles and maybe if possible get to shoot a few rounds !

Akshooter and Bill73 thank you so much for your help. I learned way more that i knew before just by your posts.

I am around the St. Louis, Missouri area and would really appreciate any help.

I have a .375 H&H as well as a .458 Lott currently that i shoot so it's not as though I would be going from a 30.6 or a deer rifle to the DR's.

Thanks again

What ever happened to cape outfitters. I'm sure some of you guys know I haven't heard anything from them in quite a while? Anyway they used to be a good source for double rifles in the ST. Louis area.

Rakman - if you have a source for a $8,000.00 .470 I think nows the time. I would assume for that price it's an extractor gun but thats fine. If the gun belongs to a friend (or not) see if you can shoot it first, that will answear a lot of questions.

Akshooter,
I cant believe it but Cape Outfitters is actually in the town i live about and hour south of StLouis...i just did a search for them and was shocked. They were sold and became Jeff's Outfitters in 2003 when Cape Outfitters owner Don Schrum passed. It is now Jeff's outfitters. Thanks for the heads up.

After you get a copy of Wright's book I would get Taylor's book African Rifles and Cartridges. Bill73 has good advice, I started with a 9.3 and later got a 450NE. Come Spring, if you can get to STL or central MO I could let you try a 9.3 and 450. Good luck on your double gun journey, it is a lot of fun.

All good answers....BUT...given same weight of rifle and all else being equal, the 500 will have a noticable amount more recoil. However...most 500's I've seen weigh about a pound to a pound and a half more. That makes the difference a touch less.

Neither is bad off the sticks...both will wake you up from the bench. I just put one of the 30mm 1x5 Trijicon scopes on my 500 Jeff....sighting in is interesting.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

1. You have a good answer regarding "on face", "off face" from AKShooter.

2. Yes and yes.

3. Have the gun regulated with the recoil reducer. I do not believe they devalue the rifle.

4. Depends on the rifle. Some .470's are worse than a .500 IMHO. The .470 is so bourgeois these days, get a .500 and be respected at the range.

5. Hornady is making both .470 and .500 ammo. The real answer is to reload. Factory ammo is too expensive to shoot regularly.

6. Pay $8K and get the rifle now, not a year from now!

7. Graeme Wright's book is essential.

Hope that helps.

Wright's book is mostly about reloading, not exactly essential to shooting anything.

The recoil from a Lott and a 500 NE is approximately the same; same ~ 5800 ft-lbs of bullet energy.

Some people use a 500 over a 470 as a crutch ( JUST KIDDING)

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Some people use a 500 over a 470 as a crutch ( JUST KIDDING)

It is to compensate for phallic issues from my childhood.

I see .500 NE ammuntion listed as .500 Nitro Express 3"...not sure what the 3" means. Is there different casing lenghths? Hope my question makes sense?

Yes, there is 3" and 3 1/4". Most of the modern doubles are of the 3" variety. The only real difference is lower pressures in the 3 1/4". At "normal" loads, the pressure difference is immaterial.

Talk to your family about this.

Now.

There may be time for an intervention.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Talk to your family about this.

Now.

There may be time for an intervention.

Already did and her reponse involved a diamond tennis bracelet...

your knowledge is appreciated??? here??