I KNOW that we have been over this before. I KNOW that conventional wisdom says that a double should be a rimmed cartridge. What I can't figure out is if that is the case, why do double makers ROUTINELY chamber doubles in rimless or belted cartridges? Heck, they make them in .243, .308, .270, .280, 30-06, and EVERYBODY WHO IS ANYBODY ROUTINELY CHAMBER THE .375 H&H. I know the stock answer is because the consumers demand it but I just can't believe that reputable companies like Merkel and Krieghoff would put out a product unless they were convinced that it would work, especially a dangerous game rifle.

Here is my question for you guys that have such a gun... Have you ever had any problem with it, especially guys with the .375 H&H?

Dave

Dave....I'll be the first to chime in and let me say that this is totally my opinion. I would have no issue with using a double chambered for a belted/rimless for any non-dangerous game. That being said, I would not use such a round for DG...period. I can't claim multiple DG charges....only one...a buff in Zim...but if you get in the thick of things, it's one less issue to concern yourself with.
Additionally, most, if not all, belted/rimless cartridges operate at higher pressures than the old classic cartridges....maybe the lone exception being the 416 Rigby. And higher pressures put more stress, over time, on a double.

There's my $.02.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

GarBy, said it as plainly as it can be said! When non-dangerous game is on the minue, do your thing, however, when bite backs are on license,the smart man follows the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!) preciple!

Anything made by man can malfunction, but there is no need to tempt fate, and Mr. Murphy lurks in the thorn!

Mac....I had a fleeting daydream one time about a buff charge with the double and the rounds stuck after the first 2 were fired......after kicking my own a$$, I vowed I would'nt let that happen!
Rims are for doubles!

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

all the experts here use only rimmed cartridges.

some one better tell Mssrs Holland Purdey etc that they don't know what they are doing and cannot possibly
build a reliable rifle using a belted case.

i'm sure they would appreciate being thusly informed by the experts and know it alls on this forum.

i have 2 375 belted doubles using the Holland system and never had a problem

we have all heard this debate ad infinitum.

no matter what kind of information, nothing will ever change a closed mind

It seems to me that most of the double rifles one sees for sale in France are for rimmed cartridges like the 8 X 57 JRS or the 9.3. There are so many rimmed cartridges, with a majority of the double rifles chambered in rimmed cartridges, that I don't see the need for a rimless cartridge. Check out the list:

http://www.intermin.fi/intermin/images.nsf/files/6D0F8F...AIPPA+II+haku+02.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
It seems to me that most of the double rifles one sees for sale in France are for rimmed cartridges like the 8 X 57 JRS or the 9.3. There are so many rimmed cartridges, with a majority of the double rifles chambered in rimmed cartridges, that I don't see the need for a rimless cartridge. Check out the list:

http://www.intermin.fi/intermin/images.nsf/files/6D0F8F...AIPPA+II+haku+02.pdf

WINK,As Tom Tondrus so plainly wrote with the last bite, in his chewing, "No matter what kind of information, nothing will ever change a closed mind"!, your information will not change his mind!

As far as the building of a double rifle with a chambering for a belted rimless cartridge being a vote for doing it, is simply dumb! All maker do it, because the customers order it done that way, and H&H is not going to turn down $160K and refuse to build one. If the customer gets his butt trampled, it is no skin off their asses. Of course they are going to build it as reliable as they can, but that, again, doesn't make it a good idea. They also build doubles with auto safeties, with single triggers, and a TV antenna, if that is what the customer wants, and is willing to pay their price!

Again when dangerous game is involved, the KISS factor is the smart route to take! If the truth were known the H&H people feel the same way, but $160K is hard to turn down, simply because the customer wants something they wouln't use personally! As far as telling H&H what to build, that is exactly what the customer does when he orders one of their double rifles! They simply built it to the customers order. If the rife he wants is chambered for a belted/rimless cartridge, that is what he gets. What he uses it on is his choice, as well!

I think the H&H's view is a little more complex than build what the clinet wants for $160k. A couple of years ago I was able to buy an H&H Royal from the 60s in essentially new condition at a very good price partly becasue it was in 458 win mag. I took it to Russell Wilkins (the H&H factory manager) to talk about rechambering it to a rimmed cartridge (I think that we were talking about 450 3 inch if I recall). I would have been perfectly prepared to pay the $12k that they wanted to do it and reregulate. Russell encouraged my to just shoot like it was, that the real world data that they have said that it would work just fine. In this case they discouraged me from paying them money to convert. So far, he has been right. I've fired about 500 rounds through this rifle and taken en elephant and 2 buffalo without a malfunction.

bradhe, JPKdid the same with a double rifle he bought a couple years ago, also chambered for 458 Win Mag, and wanted to do the same rechamber it to 450NE, and JJ told him to try it for a while as it was, and see if he had a problem with it! He's taken a several elephant with the rifle with no problem so far! He's convenced, as you seem to be, and that is good! My opinion is, there is nothing wrong with the 458 Win Mag today with the powders we have today, but even so, I'd rather have the 458 LOTT loaded to the balistics of the 450NE, for low pressure, even in my Lott bolt rifle, and that is the way I load it. In the double rifle chambered for the 458 Win Mag, if I wanted a rimless belted cased chambering I'd re-chamber to the lott, any way.

I don't want a 458Win Mag, or the Lott in a double rifle, because IMO, there will come a time the thought will cross your mind, "I WISH I'D RE-CHAMBERED THIS THING!" I hope it is on the fireing range, and not when standing a charge! KISS Factor!