I. HOLLIS & SONS
A 12-BORE BOXLOCK EJECTOR RIFLE

30-inch barrels with 2 1/2-inch chambers, file-cut short raised rib with folding leaf sights to 300, cross-bolt extension, plain frame and top lever, 15 1/2-inch figured replacement stock with pistol grip and rubber recoil pad, 7lb. 10oz., nitro proof, re-finished overall



this is the proof marks, looks good to me


will show more when it arrives, so far im over the moon, and as excited as a 14 year old boy in a whorehouse

best regards

peter

Glad you are happy Peter! Let us know how she shoots.

as soon as i get it between my hands, i will do a show and tell.
anybody know if the hollis books still excist ?

best regards

peter

We believe that the records were destroyed in a fire or something like that. As an owner of an A. Hollis and Son 450/400 3 inch I wish I could lay my hands on the day book!

As for now, they are probably lost to the ages!

When you get the rifle I would be interested to know if there is a 3 digit number stamped on the under rib near the barrel loop (where the aorearm attaches to the barrels)

rusty

i got the gun home yesterday and there were no numbers other than the serial number.
with that said the gun is pittet in that area and the refinish needs a refinish that is done right, actually everything refinished looks like it have been done in india, but the gun is sound and makes a nice fun gun though.

best

peter

It's taken a long time to get from the UK to Denmark. I viewed it at Sotheby's last year along with the Parker-Hale I bought!

well the pictures show alot more rust than is visible on this one but what the heck, the treatment this one will get is a good rust blue on the barrels and oil finish on the stock, im undecided about the action we will see. oh and the pad will be the first thing to go a new silvers is on order as we speak....









cheers

peter

That looks like a wonderful rifle. I'd be thrilled to call it mine. A little TLC should put it back in tip top shape.

Peter,
It looks grweat but you might need a little help from the Rust Store

quote:

When you get the rifle I would be interested to know if there is a 3 digit number stamped on the under rib near the barrel loop (where the aorearm attaches to the barrels)

quote:

rusty

i got the gun home yesterday and there were no numbers other than the serial number.

This is an I. Hollis, not an A. Hollis, so the Leonard number wouldn't be there. Totally different companies.
--------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

well that was fun. this gun is not regulated for a 1 1/8 oz slug at 1275 fps(factory brenneke)

it was a nice crisp and clear day with temp around -2 celcius

setting up the target at 50 meters(the target is a 2 liter sodapop bottle)

setting up for the first shot

boom

full recoil

WTF

second shot set up

boom

full recoil

looking in disbeleif

the gun crosses about 12 " and shooting low, so we need round ball and balck powder now, or a heavy slug with some speed, maybe both.....

i did shoot the rest of the packet with same results.

i will see what i can scrounge up from different sources here in denmark not the most common thing here

best

peter

We might, here in UK, be able to help if you could copy out exactly what is stamped on the underflats of the barrels. Not the symbols of course but the words and numbers.

I suspect that your bullet should weigh 750 grains which is about 48.5 grams I calculate. So a bit heavier than your 1 1/8 ounce slug.

Or a better closer picture of the barrel flats. The gun is clearly proofed for smokeless and not blackpowder.

The 12 over a C in the diamond shows that it has long 2 3/4" chambers. Does it say 1 1/8 SHOT or 1 1/4 SHOT?

ES

it is a pure nitro gun, but i feel better to work up a load.
it got ywo different proof sets the original and the reproof, its the reproof that says 1 1/8 shot and were proofed with shot.

i think it will be a 4-5 drams eq. in nitro but we will see. when the smoke starts to settle.

best

peter

just a small tease

the six rounds are paper hulls that used to be 1 ounce lead no 4 shot smokeless.
now they are 3 drams(82,5 grains) of goex ffg and a .735" round ball, i cant get real black yet, so for now i have to use this stuff.
tommorow we should get sunshine and everything so i will get this load burning and see what happens.
you should get a smal flick on youtube by tomorrow night so we will see what comes of it.

if you dont see anything then it is because i need a few more fingers

peter

The 1 1/8 shot will be the reproof for bird shooting. Do the old proof marks reveal any figures?

FWIW when we British loaded a round ball into paper cases we used a roll crimp and an overshot wad. Like a normal old fashioned bird shot cartridge. The only difference being that the overshot wad had a hold punched through the middle of it - about 5mm size - so that the top of the single round ball was visible.

ES

no load or bullet weight so im a bit in the dark. the twist is 1:55-60" which could be either slug or ball, so not helping much, im waiting for a fosbury slug mould but it wont be here for another 8-10 weeks.

i imagine that it will be a slug gun but i havent the faintest idea about the load, so we will see what it likes

regarding the roll crimp, i do it too but this is just quick loads until i get the close to the proper load then i will nice them up a bit.

thanks

peter

a better wiew of the proof marks.



best

peter

12 over C usually means 2 3/4" chambers. 13 over 1 means that 9" from the breech the bore diameter was .719" in diameter.

quote:

The 12 over a C in the diamond shows that it has long 2 3/4" chambers.

No. These marks are 1904-1925. For that period, 12 over "C" in a diamond means that the gun was proved with a 12 gauge chamber of normal length (less than 3 inches). That means that it is almost certainly for either 2 1/2" or 2 3/4".

If the "C" were absent that would mean a chamberless gun. An "L" preceding the "C" would indicate a "long" chamber (over 3 inches).

quote:

it got ywo different proof sets the original and the reproof, its the reproof that says 1 1/8 shot and were proofed with shot.

Peter:

First, a question. Are there any proof marks (probably in front of the flats on the barrels) that are not visible in any of the photos you have posted? If not, then your statement above is wrong.

Sincerely, not trying to be contrary, but the conclusions I'm reading here don't jive with what's in the photos.

The marks on the gun visible in the photos are all one set, with no evidence of reproof present. They're Birmingham marks from the 1904-1925 period that denote a 12 bore of normal chamber length, specifically proved for Nitro 1 1/8th ounce SHOT & BALL (S&B mark) cartridges, as opposed to a typical 2 1/2", 1 1/8th ounce 12 bore shotgun.

Since it's a 1 1/8th oz gun, original chambers were probably 2 1/2", and the sale ad states that they still are. This gun was proved as an ordinary 12 bore Shot & Ball, meaning a round ball, not a conical, and proved for light charge, not 4 or 5 drams. That probably why the ammo you tried crossed so badly. I haven't looked it up, but I'm guessing 3 dram equiv. with a round ball is what is correct.
---------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I've rechecked my Proof Act references...typically they are really poorly written and hard to understand...and also looked at my late father's gun from the same period and do now agree that your gun 12 over C together with the 1 1/8 mark is 2 1/2" chambers.

This might also help:

2 1/2 Drams = 68 Grains = 5,42 Grams
3 Drams = 82 Grains = 5,31 Grams
3 1/8 Drams = 85 Grains = 5,53 Grams
3 1/4 Drams = 89 Grains = 5,76 Grams
3 1/2 Drams = 96 Grains = 6,20 Grams

With black powder a "light" 1 ounce load would have had 2 1/2 drams, a "standard" 1 1/8 ounce load in a 2 1/2" case would have had 3 drams. A "heavy" 1 1/4 ounce load in a 2 3/4" case would have had 3 1/2 drams.

So for you ball I suggest a 85 grains/5,31 grams equivalent loading as you are using. I would be concerned about using a .735" ball! Have you slugged the bore?

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
This might also help:

2 1/2 Drams = 68 Grains = 5,42 Grams
3 Drams = 82 Grains = 5,31 Grams
3 1/8 Drams = 85 Grains = 5,53 Grams
3 1/4 Drams = 89 Grains = 5,76 Grams
3 1/2 Drams = 96 Grains = 6,20 Grams

With black powder a "light" 1 ounce load would have had 2 1/2 drams, a "standard" 1 1/8 ounce load in a 2 1/2" case would have had 3 drams. A "heavy" 1 1/4 ounce load in a 2 3/4" case would have had 3 1/2 drams.

So for you ball I suggest a 85 grains/5,31 grams equivalent loading as you are using. I would be concerned about using a .735" ball! Have you slugged the bore?

Yep. Enfield, did you mean 82 grains/5,31 grams equivalent?

quote:

So for you ball I suggest a 85 grains/5,31 grams equivalent loading as you are using.

DO slug the bore.
--------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Peter:

First, a question. Are there any proof marks (probably in front of the flats on the barrels) that are not visible in any of the photos you have posted? If not, then your statement above is wrong.

Sincerely, not trying to be contrary, but the conclusions I'm reading here don't jive with what's in the photos.

The marks on the gun visible in the photos are all one set, with no evidence of reproof present. They're Birmingham marks from the 1904-1925 period that denote a 12 bore of normal chamber length, specifically proved for Nitro 1 1/8th ounce SHOT & BALL (S&B mark) cartridges, as opposed to a typical 2 1/2", 1 1/8th ounce 12 bore shotgun.

Since it's a 1 1/8th oz gun, original chambers were probably 2 1/2", and the sale ad states that they still are. This gun was proved as an ordinary 12 bore Shot & Ball, meaning a round ball, not a conical, and proved for light charge, not 4 or 5 drams. That probably why the ammo you tried crossed so badly. I haven't looked it up, but I'm guessing 3 dram equiv. with a round ball is what is correct.
---------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

mark

thank you for your input, all the markings are there, the last one is not very clear its right on the barrel start.

the reason why i think its been reproofed is that the shot marks looks from another date than the rest(alot cleaner)

the chambers are 2,5" the barrels are fully rifled and measured out at the smallest spot in them at .730" the rifling looks like a worn henry, as in oktagonal barrel profile, the flats is where it were measured with specific steel balls.

i understand(and love) the shot and ball concept but have never heard it mentioned in a fully rifled gun.

i shot the gun today with 3 drams of goes ffg and a 600 grains round ball, it did better but still crossed about 6" at 50 meters. so my initial thought is 3,5 drams and same ball.

any thoughts ES and Mark

thank you in advance

peter

quote:

Sincerely, not trying to be contrary

i dont think you ever are, you just have a certain limitation with fools and wannabe's

quote:

Enfield, did you mean 82 grains/5,31 grams equivalent?

Thanks! The dreaded typing error. Thank you for picking it up so that Peter's shoulder doesn't suffer! Ha, ha!

I'd also try a load below 3 drams. See Greener below. Perhaps 2 1/2 drams or even 2 drams? Yet then in the second quote he seems to say "a large charge of powder"! Very confusing! The issue here may be "barrel time" (the time the ball exits the muzzle compared with the recoil position of the muzzle) and it may be that a slower load giving longer barrel time takes the crossing point further out away from you.

Is the ball shooting to the correct elevation line of the sights? In other words is it at the sight setting fifty yards correct?

I got rid of my facsimile copy of W.W. Greener's book a long time ago. But I think that he advised NOT to use more powder behind the ball load than used behind the shot load.

Greener's book is probably the source for the answer. Apparently the full text is here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/...n00greerich_djvu.txt

The other solution...a bit bizarre...may be to take the recoil pad off.

This from Greener:

"On barrels for arms of the Eighth Class, definitively proved according
to rule 15, which are rifled through their full length, the letters " S & B,"
signifying Shot and Bullet, shall be impressed, following the definitive proof
mark or chamber mark, thus

" S. & B." "

"SHOT-GUNS AS BALL-GUNS.

It is well known that the ordinary double-barrelled cylinder shot-gun will shoot
spherical bullets with fair accuracy up to fifty yards.

The recoil felt by firing a light 12-bore gun with a spherical bullet is very
considerable ; as a matter of fact, the recoil is 13 lbs. heavier with a bullet and
standard charge of powder than with the standard charge of shot.

A lighter bullet was, therefore, a desideratum, and the "Mead" shell was
produced. This consists simply of a hollow spherical core cast in the spherical
bullet ; it is shown in the illustration below. The hollow core may be filled
with an explosive if deemed advisable, and a large charge of powder may be used,
and a higher velocity and lower trajectory is obtained than can be got from a spherical bullet of the same size with a shot-gun. The ordinary game shot-gun
will not shoot bullets so well as a properly built ball-gun (not rifled) ; but the
accuracy is such that all bullets may be got into a 12-inch circle at forty yards
by a good marksman. The charge should not be more than 2| drams of No. 4 or
No. 6 grained powder.

For use in shot-guns, special projectiles have been invented which shall fly
better than the ordinary spherical ball ; some of these have projecting wings wound
spirally round the bullet, but the best known are the invention of Dr. Macleod.

In the first model holes are cast in the bullet, and it is asserted that it will be
revolved by the air rushing through the eccentric holes as the bullet takes its flight,
This heavy bullet a 12 -bore, weighs f oz., and is i^ inch in length must not
be used in a light gun, and even in a gun of 8 lbs. weight will require an india-
rubber wad half an inch in thickness to be placed over the powder before the bullet
can be fired without occasioning a painful recoil.

In the last model the loose revolving rudder affixed to the projectile is said
to steer it a more sure course. It is open to many of the objections advanced
against the first model.

In the illustration No. i is a longitudinal view of the bullet, and shows the exact
size and direction of the perforations. No. 2 is a section showing the hollow base.
No. 3 is an end elevation of the point, and No. 4 of the base.

The inherent fault of this principle of producing rotation is that the rotation is
obtained at the cost of velocity; the air resistance necessary to rotate the projectile
retards it to such an extent as to impair its utility for all sporting purposes. It
is recorded that a sportsman using a Macleod bullet fired at an Indian bison ; the
bullet struck in the centre of the forehead, but did not penetrate even the thick
skin, and but for the timely help of his companions the shooter would have lost his
life. The greater the muzzle velocity, the greater the speed of rotation ; hence the
higher fractional resistance and speedy retardation of the bullet.

Gun barrels, when choke-bored, may also be rifled for a itw inches at the
muzzle, as in the " Murphy " and the " Paradox " guns ; and these weapons,
although they will not shoot shot as closely and regularly as a true choke-bore,
nevertheless perform up to the average, and are accurate with bullets at short
ranges. Weapons of this nature should be considered rather as rifles specially
constructed for shot than as shot-guns for ball. The Government Proof-House
Regulations require that such weapons be proved as rifles that is to say, tested
with ball. Fuller particulars are given in the chapter on " Rifles."

Choke-bore guns may be used as ball-guns, providing that the bullet to be fired
will pass easily through the muzzle, and it may be interesting to sportsmen to know
that choke-bore guns shoot ball quite as well as guns bored ordinary cylinders.
Especially is this of interest to those who use but one gun, and have often the
chance of a shot or two at big game. Gunmakers and sportsmen alike have been
misled by the proof marks ; on all choke-bores " Not for ball " was formerly marked.

Another point to be noticed is, that if one barrel be modified choke or
cylinder, // is only necessary to use the one-sized ball, the larger bored barrel shooting to
all intents and purposes as well as the smaller barrel for which the ball is moulded.

Any gun which is safe to use with shot would be quite as safe with ball,
provided that ordinary care be taken to see that the ball be not larger than the smallest part of the barrel, and the charge of powder does not exceed the
ordinary one used with shot. Further, the ring wads are not at all necessary ;
one card and one thick felt over the powder, the ball being fixed in either by
an ordinary turnover or crimper, will give all that is needed. Neither wad nor
PATCH OVER THE BALL, Or the gun-barrel may be burst.

The adjoined diagram was made by a full-choke-bored light game gun, charged
with 2| drams powder, bullet 14-bore, and 12-gauge case, distance 40 yards".

"RIFLED SHOT-GUNS AND CHOKE-BORED RIFLES.

The endeavours of gun-makers towards producing a good all-round weapon have
resulted in such inventions as rifled shot-guns and choke-bored rifles, from which
both shot and ball cartridges may be indiscriminately fired. The rifled shot-gun
(Fosbery's Patent) has the barrel of an ordinary choke-bored shot-gun rifled for the
last few inches of its length, a sharp spiral is adopted, and a grooving of sufficient
sharpness to turn a conical-cannelured bullet. Such weapons shoot shot moderately
well better than the ordinary cylinder shot-gun, but not so closely as the perfectly
choked gun and conical bullets with accuracy to 100 yards.

The oval-bore rifle, if the spiral be not too sharp, will throw shot closely and
well at ordinary ranges, but a still better weapon than either of these is the choke-
bore rifle, in which a rifle with modern shallow grooving is choke-bored at the rnuzzle
(Greener's Patent) and has a perfectly smooth surface throughout its entire length.

These weapons are treated by the Government Proof Houses as rifles, and are
subjected to special tests with ball. They are usually made of light weight say,
7|lbs. i2-bore and for both bear and boar shooting they offer many advantages,
and as a second rifle they fill a need which many a hunter of large game, pioneer
and explorer has often felt. Wherever large game is occasionally to be met with,
they form the best armament of the sportsman. They shoot spherical bullets with a large charge of powder, and are chosen
therefore by many who desire a second weapon for use against buffalo or other
thick-skinned animals.

They have the accuracy and force of the heavy rifle combined with the lightness
and handiness of the shot-gun. Firing black powder and a conical bullet at 100
yards, diagrams measuring about 4 inches by 3 can be readily obtained. Suitable smokeless cartridges can also be used with satisfactory results. Muzzle velocity of
the i2-bore varies from 1,050 to 1,200 ft. sees., with striking energy at 100 yards of
1,722 ft. lbs. to 1,822 ft. lbs., according to load and bullet used".

quote:

the reason why i think its been reproofed is that the shot marks looks from another date than the rest(alot cleaner)

Peter:

Understood but, no, the marks are all from one proof. Under the 1904 rules, a re-proof would entail a complete second set of marks stamped alongside the originals, which is not the case here.

quote:

Originally posted by Enfieldspares:

"On barrels for arms of the Eighth Class, definitively proved according
to rule 15, which are rifled through their full length, the letters " S & B,"
signifying Shot and Bullet, shall be impressed, following the definitive proof
mark or chamber mark, thus

" S. & B." "

Enfield has got it (excellent post). Here's the reason you got a little confused - and it is confusing! I was operating strictly from memory, and had forgotten about this part myself. I'm fine with ordinary British rifles, but know better when it comes to shottys and gauge rifles. Having re-read the 1904 rules that apply here...

Yes, under the 1904 Rules of Proof, arms of the Eighth Class are definitively proved under Rule 15. The kicker is that Rule 15 does not encompass Nitro Proof. Arms of the Eighth Class Nitro Proved for shot, BUT NOT BALL, are proved under Rule 17 - this is how your rifle is marked. Arms of the Eighth Class Nitro Proved for both shot AND ball are proved under Rule 19. Marks for Rules 15, 17, and 19 all differ from each other.

In addition to normal Provisional, Definitive, View and Bore marks, S & B marks for each rule are as follows.

Rule 15: "S & B" mark, but no "Nitro Proof" or shot weight, or bullet weight mark.

Rule 17: "S & B" mark, PLUS "Nitro Proof, 1 1/8 Shot".

Rule 19: "S & B" mark, PLUS "Cordite 750 Bullet Max"

quote:

From the 1904 Rules of Proof:

"Arms of this class, in which Nitro Powders and Shot are intended to be used, receive a supplementary proof, in addition to, and after, the Definitive Proof, under Rule 17. It must be pointed out that this proof provides only for the use of shot with Nitro Powders, and not the use of Bullet, for which reason the word "Shot" is used in the marking under Rule 57."

The example of the marks for Rule 17 then given in the text for Birmingham is an exact duplicate of the marks on your gun. Your gun is Nitro Proved for shot, but not ball. That's that part of the S & B rules I had forgotten.

quote:

i understand(and love) the shot and ball concept but have never heard it mentioned in a fully rifled gun.

The "S & B" actually MEANS that it's fully rifled. If only partially rifled (choke only) they are marked "R CHOKE", instead of "S & B".

Peter, I agree with Enfield about trying a lighter charge. If ball is still crossing 6 inches, that usually means they're still too fast. Cut it back just a little more and see if the crossing is reduced.
-------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

gentlemen

i thank you with all my heart.

next load will be 2,5 drams and the round ball, and i have also found the patterning board and that with some shotgun shells will come along. i will keep you all posted.

thank you

peter

I noted that Greener says NOT to use an over bullet (ball) wad.

Yet all the paper cased ones that I recall seeing in the UK did have it with that hole punched in the top so that you could see that a single ball was loaded.

So I don't know on that matter.