We now have a couple of years of data on how these double rifles perform. I would challenge every owner or previous owner to give their synopsis on how their experience has been for them.

We know that Jorge has been very pleased with his as well as a couple of others.

I would like to hear from all takers their experiences, not only from the accuracy standpoint, but as to the quality of support from USSG (who should be responsible for all maintenance of these guns) and Cabelas (the retailer) and any other issues they might have concerns about.

I would also welcome anyone to voice their concerns about any other DR manufacturer and any inherit problems with those rifles.

It is time time to get a real composite review after two years on the market.

Thanks for your honest review, and try not to be prejudiced based upon your favorite maker.

Thanks for your input,

Mike

I don't know if I'd give them a full 'two years on market' since Cabelas just started offering them last year.


I mean, lets face it, they get more face time because of Cabelas than any other distributer. Their recent popularity, is pretty much due to that.

It will be interesting to see, given the number of problems and returns, if Cabelas is still selling them a year or two from now. Given the relatively small market for any rifles costing more than a couple of thousand dollars Cabelas would have been better served to have spent a bit more time and money to have gotten them right before jumping into the market with them.

Mike: I'd change "very pleased" to "cautiously optimistic." While mine shot well had I noticed the "regulation by dremmel" I would not have purchased it. Broken ejectors and stocks I can live with as they happen to all rifles, but that regulation issue really bugs me. That and some of the problems mentioned here, really give me pause. I think the jury is still out on them and I'd sure like to hear from Kwan, a PH with one in the field. jorge

Still happy with my .450, no problems yet. I also think that a lot of the histeria we see here on Ar is a pretty small sampling of the actual number of rifles sold and in use.

Lets face it, if I wasn't on this sight I would think they are all great since they are still relatively rare and mine works fine. On the other hand anybody lurking here lately would think that they are all a bunch of garbage.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

I would LOVE to know what the real sales/production numbers are versus the complaint/return rate. That would tell me all that I need to know.

Out of curiosity what serial numbers are they up to in the stores now?

Bought mine in june and it's numbered in the 180's.

Hello,

Cabelas experience was top notch not a bad word to say.

USSG - Never replied to any of my calls or emails, avoid at all costs, even when I called to inquire about purchasing a second scope mount and rear sight, prior to my issues.

Sabatti - Never responded to emails. I did meet the Rep. ( Owner ? ) at the fine Italian firearms expo in Toronto Canada, communication was an issue, the display guns at the expo did not have the "Regulation" method I experienced.
This is also why I overlooked it at the Cabelas store, I really checked them out at this show before buying.

Of the owners who responded to my thread. 50 ~ 60 % had regulation in either 1 or 2 barrels.
50 ~ 40 % reported no issues including some multiple gun owners. Only one owner sent me tons of pictures that clearly showed no "Regulation"

Accuracy - ? ( I could not get mine to shoot factory ammo )

Durability - ?

My experience and 2c
Thanks
Nitro

Hello,

Just in case: ( People think it's me and not the gun, I can shoot )

This is my K gun at 50 yds.



Buff target 50 Yrds off sticks.



Federal Factory ammo, Both target shot at the GD Rapids MI DRSS Shoot.

I will post a pic of the Sabatti targets, once I get them downloaded, the DRSS members that were at the TX hunt saw the Groups from the Sabatti with factory ammo.

Nitro

nitro450exp,
The man at the Sabatti display at the EVA 2010 exhibit in Toronto was Gabrielle Sabatti, one of the three brothers who own the company. I spent quite a bit of time talking to him, both on Saturday and on Sunday, as a matter of fact I ate lunch with him on Sunday. I found him to be the epitome of an old-world gentleman and very open and truthful when I asked him some pretty pointed questions about his product. Also, his English was pretty darned good, certainly a heck of a lot better than my almost non-existant Italian. As well, my good friend Claudio Opacak, who has forgotten more about double guns and rifles than most of us will ever know, and who speaks Italian like a Roman, spent a while talking to Gabrielle and was equally impressed, both with the man and with the guns on his display.

Ron

As stated my experience at the show, promted me to buy a 500 Ejector.
However upon delivery the Dremel "regulation" method was dicovered, and upon shooting the gun failed to meet the regulation target after several tries.
I asked him several questions but did not get all of them answered due to the language barrier, maybe my South African accent threw him off !

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by ron vella:
nitro450exp,
The man at the Sabatti display at the EVA 2010 exhibit in Toronto was Gabrielle Sabatti, one of the three brothers who own the company. I spent quite a bit of time talking to him, both on Saturday and on Sunday, as a matter of fact I ate lunch with him on Sunday. I found him to be the epitome of an old-world gentleman and very open and truthful when I asked him some pretty pointed questions about his product. Also, his English was pretty darned good, certainly a heck of a lot better than my almost non-existant Italian. As well, my good friend Claudio Opacak, who has forgotten more about double guns and rifles than most of us will ever know, and who speaks Italian like a Roman, spent a while talking to Gabrielle and was equally impressed, both with the man and with the guns on his display.

So did he answer the question about "regulation by dremel"? From the poll 450 took here it ran about 50%. jorge

Jorge

My recollection of the guns at the show, was that they had not been "Regulated" So I did not raise the question.

If Ron had a different experience and had asked this question I would be very interested to hear.

Nitro

This was WAAAY before the "regulation by Dremel" topic arose. I saw absolutely no evidence of that on the guns that I examined in Toronto. I build double rifles as a hobby(six so far), so such a thing would have stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Obviously, because this topic was not all over these chat sites at that time, I did not ask Gabrielle about it. BTW, this was in May, I think, of 2010.

Thanks, Ron.

In answering question of what owners' have experienced with their Sabatti double rifles, I would answer this way: The first Sabatti I bought was a .500; previously I had heard rumors about the possibility of poor regulation with the Sabbati rifles. However, I bought it anyway, since I had done some conversion work, double shotgun to double rifle, using W. Ellis Brown's methods, thinking that if it needed re-regulation, that I would do it; no big problem. I liked the .500, but found their .500s are too light for caliber, so I added a bit of weight in most appropriate places, correcting the problem to some degree. Recently, I decided that I very well may make a second barrel set for it, with far less taper to it, to add weight, and keep that weight more toward the wrist pin as possible; use the original barrel set for regulating with a lighter weight .500 bullet, for use when the heavier bullet is needed. At the time of buying this .500, I liked it so much that I later bought a .470 with the nicest piece of walnut I have yet to see on a Sabatti, and found that this .470 shot way better than the .500, so I was extremely happy with it. Happy so far, so bought a third one, a .450/.400, and like it too, but it doesn't have the great accuracy regualtion of my .470, though still acceptable. Soon after this, for the first time, I learned about Sabatti's grinding of the muzzle crowns, to "steer" the bullets for fine tuning regulation, a new concept for me, for sure, a concept I take a dim view of. Anyway, I was in a panic, and checked my three Sabatti rifles over, to find no oval or ground muzzle crowns as found by other owners, so thanked my lucky stars; I was extremely relieved over that. From a friend in Italy, I learned, from Sabatti, that the actions used on these Sabatti DRs is of a modern alloy, nickle, chrome, molybdenum, heat treated, and is extremely strong, tough, and able to hold up to any breech pressure normally used in such rifles. Too, my examination showed that actions are quite heavy, thick, in areas needed, much more so than any 12 gauge shotgun action for possible conversion to double rifle. I have now done quite a bit of custom work on my Sabatti double rifles, finding them to be very well made, all but one spring are traditional V springs; not coil, as found on so many modern double rifles these days. The mainsprings and the ejector springs are V, and of best construction and materials. Seems that they took shortcuts in keeping costs down, only by the muzzle crown grinding, an unfortunate circumstance, that I am sure will lower their sales over time, especially in this country. I can easily understand why average buyers would reject such regulation practices, but for someone like me, it isn't that big of an issue, because the barrels can easily be re-regulated without a whole lot of trouble, since we do it anyway, as a pastime. Otherwise, personally, I am very happy with the rifles. If I were to buy another one, though, one of the first things I would look for, would be to see if the muzzle crowns had side grinding done, and I would reject them. Cabelas has always been very easy to work with, and, in time, Sabatti will correct the situation, or will lose sales. I know Sabatti isn't for everyone, but personally, I like mine a lot. Custom working one over, makes for a far better double rifle than a conversion of shotgun to double rifle, and I have done quite a lot of that. I know that some people have, for personal reasons, an agenda against Sabatti rifles, but that is their problem; not mine.

doubleriflejack

That is great info. Really good report.

.

Ok, I suspect most folks here are aware of the problems I had with my Sabattis, from my thread: http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/9941082441


The following is a faithfull narative of all my experiance(s) with Sabatti(s), Cabelas, and USSG.



First, I bought a Sabatti .450NE ejector. When I got it home, I noticed that the rear trigger did not work, and the right ejector would always eject, even when I had not pulled the trigger.

I called USSG several times in the course of a just couple of days. I received no answer, but left several messages. After about a week I received a return call.

In the mean-time, I had been in contact with a qualified gunsmith about my problems. (he has been twice to the Gardone Valley where Sabatti, Pedersoli, and others are made, to study their methods)

Ok, USSG finally called me back, I spoke with a lady there and she said that they would NOT cover the shipping and insureance to USSG for "inspection and repair if needed".

The costs would have been in excess of $150.00. My gunsmith told me he could fix the problem(s) for less than that amount.

When I spoke with the lady at USSG, she said I needed to send it to them, but I would have to pay for S&I. I mentioned what my gunsmith had said (about him repairing the rifle), and she said "well, it sounds like you are in good hands", and made no effort to persuade me to send it to them.


So, my gunsmith fixes the trigger problem (a burr on the sear), and does a simple fix on the ejector.

I take the rifle out and shoot it. 10 rounds thru it with no problems.

After a little while, one of the ejectors (the right, not the left as in my thread), suddenly gave out. I took it to my gunsmith again, and he said that the problem was that the LEFT (V-type) ejector spring was overlaping the RIGHT ejector spring, causing severe and premature ware on the RIGHT cocking lever. After being so worn down, the RIGHT hand ejection system was unable to function.


He contacted USSG about the problem and they told him that they didn't know if they had a replacement part or not! It took them over 1 and 1/2 weeks to get back to him, to tell him they had the part. They said that because I had not sent the gun to them, I had voided the warranty and that they would not cover the cost of the part or the shipping.

My gunsmith said that the person he spoke with was excedingly arrogant and rather rude and not very helpfull, not the kind of people I would want to send my gun to...



Anyway, after a while, I heard from my gunsmith. He said he had just received the "replacement" part.... they sent him the wrong part.

When I spoke to him, he told me further what USSG had told him.

He said that he called to complain about reciving the wrong part, and had requested to speak with the president of USSG or whoever was in charge, not only to complain about the wrong part but to complain about the infamous manner in which he was dealt with.

I don't think he ever got to talk with one of the big-wigs, but the fella he spoke with told him that USSG had brought him (and others) to deal with the public, while USSG reorganized their customer service (or something very like that).

He told my gunsmith that they weren't (fully) computerized. He said that if you were to him (them) a gun to have "fixed", and call later to check on progress, he (they) could not tell you its status, he (they) could tell you what "department" it was in, but not any more.

He also told my gunsmith that, (because) they imported a great number of firearms, they didn't have all the (replacement) parts for the Sabatti double rifles.

. . .

So, during all this garbage, Jorge had been working on Cabelas for me. He gave me the name and number of someone at the "corporate level" that he had spoken to. He had goten me a concession that Cabelas would give me a replacement or refund. So I proceded to work on Cabelas myself.

The guy I spoke with said with the OK from the "higher ups", he could procede with the replacement proces.

I returned the Sabatti. They did not cover the $150.+ shipping and insureance fee(s).

Having taken it out to shoot, the stock had a scratch in the finish. It came to me with dings and scratches, so I did think they would make a big deal out of it. Well they did. They wanted to charge me $200.00 for a repair fee, to refinish the stock.

I used to work for a custom rifle-stock maker ( www.accurateinnovations.com ) in the finish room. I told them the scratch did not merit a $200.00 repair fee, and that I would not pay it. A short while later, he called back and said they would not charge me at all for the scratch in the finish.

Anyway...


I got on Cabelas website and picked out a new Sabatti .450NE ejector. I hoped this would be the end of my problems... (by the way, they made me pay a fee to ship me the replacement)


I received the "replacement" Sabatti, and it had problems also...

The stock was either poorly inletted, or is not properly "torqued". There was a sling-stud on the bbls, but not on the stock. The front sight was bent about 30-45 degrees out of line, and the trigger guard is rather loose.

Turns out, there was a carbon-copy of a repair form from USSG in the guncase. Apperantly, the origanal stock had to be replaced, so Cabelas sent it back to USSG.


Next, I called the Cabelas about the problems, and asked if I could shoot it to "prove" the regulation... and still be able to return it if it was highly in accurate. He agreed.

I put 8 rounds through it. At 25 yards, off sticks, the rifle grouped terribly. I called Cabelas back, and started to arrange for anther return.

I asked if they would cover the cost of the return (to them) shipping and insureance, he agreed.

By this time I was losing my patience, fast. I didn't want another Sabatti, I wanted to get out of this with my shirt on.


I called the (Gun Room) Manager of the Cabelas I had been dealing with. He said that a refund was not something that they could (usualy) do, but that he would "speak to the powers that be" and see what could be done.

I spoke with phone with Ryan (Gun Library manager-Cabelas Glendale, AZ).

He said he had heard back from the "higher-ups" and got the OK for refunding the money for the rifle only.

I told him I wanted a refund for the (first) shipping fee.

He said a LOT of junk about all THEIR expenses with shipping and repairs, etc...

I said I understood these facts, but I didn't understand why I should be stuck with the (shipping and insurance fee) bill because they sent me a defective firearm!

He him-hawed around saying stuff like "well it's taken an act of congress just to get a refund just for the rifle, and we're just losing money from here." and stuff like "That is something that should have been taken care of at the time. And really, the rifle should have been sent to the distributer (USSG/EAA) in the first place, but that didn't happen..."


So he gave me a DEFINITE NO as to the (first) return shipping fee.

(they did cover second return fee)


He wasn't rude, but it was evident he wasn't happy at all, and it sounded like he was NOT going to any more than he absolutely had to. That is to say, what the people "above" him told him he had to.


So, I then proceded to call someone at the "corporate" level, and see if I could get the money back from the (first) shipping fee.


I spoke with the guy that Jorge (and LionHunter) had recomended I contact. He said something like- "I can't guarantee that it will happen, but I will do all I can for you. The refund for the rifle I can (and did) guarentee, this I am not sure about. But I'll give it my best swing and see what I can do." (and he did too)


Andy Riedlinger is best person I've dealt with at Cabelas yet. When I first asked him about a refund for the rifle, he didn't even suggest another replacement, he simply said "just tell them to give you your money back". No questions, no hassle, no fuss, he is the kind of person that gives Cabelas its good name.


So after a couple of weeks I received my FULL refund, for the rifle and ALL the return fees.



Sorry for the gigantic post, but that is a (comparatively) breif synopsis of all my dealings with Sabatti, USSG, and Cabelas.

Best Regards,

Nemo.

quote:

The costs would have been in excess of $150.00.

Damn, I hope Cabelas asked for a copy of the shipping receipt. They must have an expensive carrier.

Jorge

Sorry mate, I have been running around the lower 48 freezing my a!@#@#$ off most of the time, si hae nit had a chance too play more with my Sabatti,

So far, mine no hassles, shoots good enough for me, and I am happy, last count I had about 100 rounds through it,and a lot of dead 2liter coke bottles it was,

Friend of Mine and Winks got a 500 and 9.3 he is a happy s@@# with both

Client in Odessa has 450 NE , he is happy as well

Spoke too chap at Reno, from Cabelas, they have sold 377 up too that stage , maybe 5 had problems ??????? who gives a f@#$#$ what the rest of the world thinks at those % points

Many thanks Walter. jorge

Here is my experience. Bought a 450 NE 1 year ago. Shot approx. 350 rounds through it. Regluated very well with handloads and using woodliegh bullets. This rifles shows NO marks
on end of bores and is properly regulated. Wood is very good. Fit & finish are VERY good.
Triggers are good and needed no work. Rifle handles very well & is balanced well and I find it very comfortable to shoot but I am not as recoil shy as many others I know & shoot with.
I took a chance on this rifle as it appeared to be quality for the price and well made. Also because I am a long time customer of cabelas and have had outstanding customer service from them on all occasions. That said, if I were contemplating buying another I would first want to see the bores and see that it was not regulated by modifying the end of the bores -0 if so I would not buy it although this is a method sometimes used by gunsmiths . I will finish by saying that I like my rifle very muchand will use it to hunt elephant very soon and know I will feel completly confident that I am armed well.

Excellent post clayman, my sentiments exactly. jorge

Mine has had the crown work. So far I like the way it shoots and it functions as it's supposed to. Good looking wood and good wood to metal fit.

I did put a recoil pad on it and added a Mercury reducer.

I think I'll keep it.

Jim

i guess the sabbatti dr. is much like all production products you cant hold it to the same quality control of a vc or jeffrey any more than you can compare a ford to a rolls royce. the people driving the royce would never approve of the ford any more than the vc, jeffrey. or h&h, or lamberts owners will every approve of a production dr. sabbatti is what it is and to the wannabe that doesnt make the 6 or high 6 figure salery it fills an important void in their gun quest and desires its to bad the lower priced drs. have to run such a gauntlet of acceptance. im sure the 5 and 6 figure drs have their fair share of problems but like the rolls royce they will never get the same attention as a ford would get with the same problem. im not to concern of the sabbattis regulation by[quote] drummel grinding i think for the money the sabbatti is a great buy and the quality will only get better, and a thread like this one will have a positive effect on both the manufacturer and there distributers.jmoa

quote:

and to the wannabe that doesnt make the 6 or high 6 figure salery it fills an important void in their gun quest

That is a damned arrogant statement! You Sir have no idea what I make or my net worth, and I assure you it has no impact on my choice of rifle.

quote:

but like the rolls royce they will never get the same attention as a ford would get with the same problem

That is a true statement.

Your post is somewhat confusing.

I don't drive the vehicle I drive as any sort of status symbol, I drive it because it has the options I want, and will do the job I ask of it for the best value I can find. My net worth is not tied up in "status symbols".

Same with my guns.

JTEX

I agree with the second part of your post.

Which is why I have a Merkel as a"thrash" gun. If Sab's had been available, I probably would have grabbed one of them.

.

I got my Sabatti 450NE last May. Shot at least 100 rounds thru it so far. It is the first double I have owned or shot so bought it with the idea that if I could not shoot a double very good I would not have alot of money tied up in it.
I do not hand load so I shoot factory Hornadys.
My experience so far:
Wood, fit and finish all very good.
Strong ejecters
accurate-at 50 yards about an inch apart with 1 shot about half an inch higher than the other shot.
I inspected the crown and it shows no sign of rework like I saw on the other thread.
triggers are ok-a bit heavy but not too bad.
Not much for a recoil pad but is fine for a 450NE-pleasant to shoot I think.
The only negative I have is the length of pull at 15.25" is too long-will get it shortned this spring.

I bought it because I wanted to take an elephant with a double and so far I have been lucky that I have not experienced the kind of problems others had.

While I am very happy at this point with my Sabatti, we will see if it stands the test of time and how I feel 2 years from now.

Another well-reasoned post as to what Sabbatis bring to the marketplace and the hunting fields. I just wished mine did not have the dremel tool regulation. It's like an itch I can't scratch....

Well, would anyone disagree with the statement that so far from these posts:-

1. The vast majority are positive - which is good.
2. Only a few guns have been regulated by dremel ?


Question
If they have only used a dremel on some, why didn't they take the time to re do it properly ?

And

I wonder if it was only the early guns that were dremeled ?sp? and they had more time
later on to do the other properly ?

Any thoughts ?

.
.

Jorge, I think your Sabatti sucks, send it to me postpaid.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Jorge, I think your Sabatti sucks, send it to me postpaid.

Hey Will,
I think your book sucks! Send it to me postpaid and I'll use it for firestarter.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:



2. Only a few guns have been regulated by dremel ?

.
.

I disagree-- I travel quite a bit and all the ones i have seen in Cabelas hear of late ( 1 at Leigh, 1 at Grand Junction, 2 at Buda, and 1 at Glendale) have all been regulated this way... I looked at 2 on Tuesday at Cabelas Buda and they were both regulated that way. The 500 they had there really was ground out on one side. If they shoot oh well/great just not my cup of coffee.

Ed

Ed

jtex: my apoligise if i offended you or any one else that was not my intent. just trying to make a point. my be4st

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
I disagree-- I travel quite a bit and all the ones i have seen in Cabelas hear of late ( 1 at Leigh, 1 at Grand Junction, 2 at Buda, and 1 at Glendale) have all been regulated this way... I looked at 2 on Tuesday at Cabelas Buda and they were both regulated that way. The 500 they had there really was ground out on one side. If they shoot oh well/great just not my cup of coffee.
Ed

Good info, thanks.

So that answers one question.


It doesn't answer why they are doing it this way ? (Part from keeping costs down).

.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Jorge, I think your Sabatti sucks, send it to me postpaid.

Hey Will,
I think your book sucks! Send it to me postpaid and I'll use it for firestarter.

You'd have to use it for fire-starter as I heard you can't read.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Well, would anyone disagree with the statement that so far from these posts:-

1. The vast majority are positive - which is good.
2. Only a few guns have been regulated by dremel ?


Question
If they have only used a dremel on some, why didn't they take the time to re do it properly ?

And

I wonder if it was only the early guns that were dremeled ?sp? and they had more time
later on to do the other properly ?

Any thoughts ?

.
.

1. - I agree.
2. - I wouldn't know, but both of mine were.


Answer
Who knows. I don't really understand. I was told early on by Cabelas, that they were demanding far more DR's than Sabatti could reasonably produce, and that Sabatti couldn't to keep up with their demands.

I don't know if the above is true, but that is what I was told.


Dremeling on the early guns. What serial numbers would be considered early? Of the 2 I had, the first one was in the 150's, and the second one was in the 170's, both had "dremeled" muzzles. Beats me.

Perhaps if we got a concences of the individual DR's with problems (specificly the dremeled muzzles), with folks giving the approx. serial number of their gun(s) (kinda like I did above). Maybe then we could draw some conclusions about "hick-ups" in production?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Jorge, I think your Sabatti sucks, send it to me postpaid.

trade it for a book?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
You'd have to use it for fire-starter as I heard you can't read.

You mean like you reading the pressures listed in Wrights book?

The "Final Tuning" as noted on their targets is done with a "Moto-Tool". Did anyone expect more at this price point? Apparently, it works part of the time and sometimes not, if it does what is the problem considering the price? If it works one has a workable double at bargain basement price.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
The "Final Tuning" as noted on their targets is done with a "Moto-Tool". Did anyone expect more at this price point? Apparently, it works part of the time and sometimes not, if it does what is the problem considering the price? If it works one has a workable double at bargain basement price.

And what about those poor sods who outlay the $$$ and it doesn't work.

It's a poor attitude as it shows they couldn't GAF and IMHO, they set
the standard low and then failed to achieve them.

Do it right the first time and they would have really stirred up the market
and not for the reasons most of these threads are about.