I have read that shooting monometal solids in a DR can hurt the barrels, if there is nowhere for the metal to go when it hits the lands.
If I understand this correctly, you can shoot a .474 mono-solid in a 470NE, but you wouldn't want to shoot a .475 mono. Or you could shoot a .475 jacketed solid with a lead core, because the lead core gives. Is this correct?
It's confusing because the A2 loading book(Any Shot You Want) calls for a .475 bullet in the 470NE, with a .475 groove diameter, but the A2 "Triad" includes their Monolithic Solid.
Is anybody out there experienced with this?
Thanks, ND

There have been many reports over the years stating that solid copper bullets can damage double rifle barrels. Many people claim that using solid copper bullets has caused the rifling to show on the outside of the barrels.


The odd thing is that even with all these reports I don't believe anyone has posted a picture of a barrel damaged in such a manner.


Jason

There was an Australian that had the Rib between the barrels of a popular French made double come apart with the firing of Mono's for memory.

It just depends on what momo it is.

The relatively soft copper solids will be the least damaging to a barrel and the ones that are truly banded are inconsequential and less damaging than jacketed lead core bullets.

As far as I know there is only one true banded solid and that is the North Fork. You can thank your lucky stars that they are back from the dead.

I will not shoot monolithic solids in my 450/400 3 inch. It is an old British double. I think they damage the thin barrels on older rifles. I cannot speak for newer rifles.

At double rifle velocities, a good premium solid bullet like Woodleigh or Hornady is all you need. Just my opine.

So...the thread is shaping up to be saying: Which composition of solid in which caliber in which kind of gun? I sort of expected this going in. Due to the vast array of barrel thichness, construction, bullet material, bullet diameter, there is a lot of variables going in. Thus, a lot of variable results coming out.
I have used many monos (A2,Barnes,Bridger)in numerous big bores over the years (.375/.416/.458/.510), but never in a DR. I have seen the benefits(inherent), that a mono provides in terminal ballistics, but wonder if it is all that big of a thing at 2100-2300ft/sec in a double?

Will:

I believe the first true banded solid is the GS Custom and they are currently available. NorthFork came along after GS Custom.

I use both and they are excellent.


Check with "Yukon Delta" here on AR as he is the US dealer. www.gscustom.co.za

Dave,
If you do a search on this subject I think you will see that there are a lot of opinions to be voiced on this topic. In general I think you will find that most experienced double rifle shooters/owners typically stay away from Monolithic bullets. Having said this, some use them regularly and report no issues. In a vintage British double it is my opinion that you would be foolish to chance damaging the rifle with said bullets. These rifles seem to shoot very well with the older style cup and core designs and I personally see no reason to shoot Mono’s in them. Some of the modern double rifle makers feel their rifles can handle Mono’s with no problem. Others still warn against their use. I personally have used GS and NF monos in my Searcy doubles and as of today have never had any issues. Butch has personally told me that these bullets properly loaded will not damage his rifles. Having said that, I primarily use Woodleigh solids and soft’s and have taken buffalo with both. They work great in the 470NE and kill very effectively. It is my opinion that the Mono’s come into their element when velocity is around 2300 FPS which for me means bolt rifles. The only exception is the NF Cup point which I simply feel is magic for buffalo in my 470. No doubt others on the forum will have different opinions than I so good luck making your choice.

THe 450-400 3" presents a very strong argument against using Monolithic solids...Geven that there at least 3 different bore diameters out there in circulation...If an unaware shooter were to push a Mono-solid say at .411 down a .408 bore - problems could result!

I'm with Rusy and as a rule only shoot mono through my bolt guns....But, man do they do the job!!

Rosco said it pretty well, and here are a couple of passages posted in past threads on this subject, for you to look at, and there are many others.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

BTW, its not a great idea to shoot a whole lot of solids in a double rifle. The driving band solids may be excluded from the above comment.

JPK

quote:

Marty, don't worry about shooting steel jacketed, lead core Woodliegh soilds in your double rifle, it will not hurt it. most of the big bore double rifles that are 100 yrs old have had little else shot through them. Your barrels on the Searcy BSS will handle them fine. The place you need to be very carefull is with mono-metal solids like the Barnes super solids, or the A-square monolithic solids. I will not shoot these in any double rifle. These two are hard, and may cause problems in the double. This warning does not apply to the North Fork square point, or cup point driveing band copper solids, which are fine in any double rifle, IMO!

The Woodliegh solids are a dirrect copy of the Kynoch solids of the 1920s, and are designed for double rifle use, so go ahead and use them. The advice to start a load 5% below your soft point load to work up a load for the solid is good advice when changeing to any bullet you have not used. Then work up one grain at a time till the rifle shoots to the regulation, or pressure sign shows. You just happened to find the right load by accident! However, from now on, always back off 5% when changeing to any bullet you haven't previously used in your rifle!

Above From a thread called Woodliegh loads!

quote:

The second thing is the choice if light fast bullets in a double , to be used for big bear, is not a good choice, IMO. I'd much rather have a slower, but as heavy as I could get ,well constructed bullet. 2200fps is pleanty, and good bullets will penetrate like a hot knife through butter, on a soft skinned animal like a Brown bear! Outside the GSC, and the north forks, I would stay away from mono-metel bullets in my double, if I were you. The North fork soft point is a very good bullet, as are the 286 gr Nosler Partitions. Those bullets can be loaded faster, with the self regulation feature of the Valmet/Tikka, but in doubles, excess pressures are not a desireable thing. High pressures tend to lock a double up so that it is difficult, or imposible to open for reloading, after fireing both barrels. That wouldn't be a comforting feeling for me, and I doubt it would be for your wife either!

Above From a thread called 9.3X74R,,,Experience?????

The North fork, and GS custom mono-metal bullets, are made of pure copper, and have very thin grooves cut in them around the bearing surface of the bullets. The bullet's solid body at bottom of those cuts are slightly larger than the groove dia of the rifleing of the barrel, while the tops of those bands left by cutting the bands are slightly larger dia than the lands. This lets the bullet seal the bore, and at the same time makes it easier to engrave the bullet by the rifleing. The metal displaced by the engraveing, is pushed into the bottom of the grooves in the bullet, so that the solid body of the bullet doesn't have to be engraved at all. IOW, the bearing surface of the bullet starts out slightly larger than the groove dia of the rifleing, and the grooves cut into the bullet, have a bottom dia that is in between the dia of the lands and grooves of the bore of the rifle. With this bullet being soft copper, this design has less stress on the barrels than does the regular jacketed bullets used for 150 yrs in rifles. Barnes made an attempt to fix their solids, by cutting grooves around their mono-metal solids, but IMO, they should have made the bands left much narrower, like the GSC, and hte North Fork.

You may do as it pleases you with your double rifle, and you may be lucky, and get by with it, However, I personally do not find the percieved benefite worth the risk involved with most mono-metal bullets. The GS Custom, and the North Fork FPS, and CPS, being the exception. IMO, those two are the only one safe in a double rifle, and even then one must be absolutely sure of his bore dia, by slugging!

quote:

As far as I know there is only one true banded solid and that is the North Fork.

GSC has been making drive band solids since 1997. Everybody else who currently makes a banded, grooved or multi cannelured bullet, followed after 2002. Of course, grooved or multi cannelured bullets do not qualify as drive band bullets. The FN, HV and SP range are all drive band bullets and, if the volume of bullet material displaced by the rifling is measured, GSC bullets have the lowest volume of displaced material of all. Coupled to the fact that the copper that GSC uses is also the softest of the coppers and alloys used by all manufacturers, it follows that GSC bullets require the least work from a barrel for engraving of the bullet.

quote:

If an unaware shooter were to push a Mono-solid say at .411 down a .408 bore - problems could result!

Consider this: Should the same shooter use a jacketed lead core .411 in a .408 bore, the pressure required, to get the bullet through the freebore and leade, will cause the bullet to expand radially to the freebore diameter, even more readily than what such bullets normally do.

Pressure behind a lead core bullet shortens the bullet and the only place the bullet volume can go, is sideways until it meets the freebore diameter, which is larger than the groove diameter of the barrel. Monos do not show radial expansion to the same extent so, if the mono is made from softer material than a steel or gilding metal jacket, barrel wall pressure is actually lower.

If there is a mismatch, one must hope that it is a true drive band solid. If the mono is a .411" GSC drive band bullet, the drive bands are .411" while shaft of the bullet is .400" in diameter. The combined volume of the .411" diameter drive bands, as well as the .0012" bullet shaft material that is displaced by the .408" rifling, remains much less that that of a conventional .408" bullet. A GSC drive band solid intended for a .411" bore will still be softer on the barrels of a .408" double rifle, compared to jacketed lead bullets of .408" diameter.

Specially for Rusty, a repeat of a previous statement GSC made:

If a double rifle delaminates or suffers barrel damage as a result of the use of a GSC recommended drive band bullet, GSC will pay for the repair.

quote:

Consider this: Should the same shooter use a jacketed lead core .411 in a .408 bore, the pressure required, to get the bullet through the freebore and leade, will cause the bullet to expand radially to the freebore diameter, even more readily than what such bullets normally do.

Pressure behind a lead core bullet shortens the bullet and the only place the bullet volume can go, is sideways until it meets the freebore diameter, which is larger than the groove diameter of the barrel. Monos do not show radial expansion to the same extent so, if the mono is made from softer material than a steel or gilding metal jacket, barrel wall pressure is actually lower.

If there is a mismatch, one must hope that it is a true drive band solid. If the mono is a .411" GSC drive band bullet, the drive bands are .411" while shaft of the bullet is .400" in diameter. The combined volume of the .411" diameter drive bands, as well as the .0012" bullet shaft material that is displaced by the .408" rifling, remains much less that that of a conventional .408" bullet. A GSC drive band solid intended for a .411" bore will still be softer on the barrels of a .408" double rifle, compared to jacketed lead bullets of .408" diameter.

You are out of my class when it comes to this level of ballistics - however your explanation to some degree makes sense to me.

I reckon I mis-spoke...."Solids" in general is what I was going at. Might be what the original poster was going at as well...

JW out

Simple rules:

Driving band solids = OK

Steel jacketed solids = limited use

Mon grooved or ungrooved bulets = Do not shoot in double rifle

JPK

Thus far, I think JPK has a good grasp on the phisics to be safe. My eyes and ears are wide open though. I think one wants to be safe and sane with a $10,000+ double reguardless of wheather it is a new "strong" construction or an old "classic". I think it is a shame to destroy such a work reguardless of its age. Bottom line...what would be the toughest construction projectile to shoot in any double that would be safe for the gun, and still be reliable on Buffs and Jumbos?
This is a great thread...many educated posts, and damn important information...keep it coming!!!
Thanks ND

Jeff,
Often confusion stems from the fact that things are not called by their correct names. In general speak a solid is any bullet that does not deform readily on impact. It could be a jacketed lead core bullet or a monometallic (monolithic) bullet.

Similarly, a "general speak" soft could be a monolithic bullet, a jacketed (cup and core) lead bullet or any one of the more complicated designs with half cores, tips and sleeves that are expected to expand on impact.

When a soft bullet, regardless of how it is made and from what, does not expand on impact, we say it acted like a solid. Sometimes thing are called what they are called because it sounds cool. Sometimes banded bullets are not and sometimes grooved bullets are not. Misconceptions abound, such as: "Lead core bullets are soft and are easier on fragile barrel systems than monometal bullets." This topic is adequately covered in several works starting as early as the mid 60s by Brownell in "Rifle pressure factors".

A general guideline to engraving pressure levels and what degree of difficulty there is in getting a bullet through the leade and forcing cone (throat for short) is seen in QuickLoad. This is not an absolute guide but it gives some indication. Some of the data given in QL is very old, incomplete and it is best to ask a bullet manufacturer if their data is relevant, before relying on it.

For those who have QuickLoad, please delete the gscustom.bul file and replace it with the correct data available from GSC. Email us for the new file and the procedure to replace it.

Shot start pressure has a small influence on pressure and speed. Approximately 2fps and 500psi per 250psi shot start pressure. Shot start pressure is only the tip of the iceberg with regard to how hard a bullet is on the barrel but it is a start.

Quickload Shot Start Pressure examples for .458 Bullets

GSC Drive Band Bullets = < 1000psi
Barnes Banded Solid 500gr = 2901psi
NF Bonded Core Soft = 3626psi
Woodleigh 500gr FMJ = 3626psi
Woodleigh 500gr Weldcore = 3626psi
Nosler Partition 500r = 3626
Hornady 500gr DGS = 3626psi
LRB 400gr J36 = 3771psi
Speer TBBC 500gr = 3916psi
Speer TBSS 500gr = 4351psi
Barnes 500gr TSX = 4351psi
Impala 475gr RNFP KO = 5076psi
Barnes X 500gr = 9427psi

Nitro,

You can believe anything you wamt but when the clever Germans originated the idea they didn't want to engrave the bomb. As long as the rifling only engraves the bands and not the bullet shank and the displaced band material has somewhere to go it is not going to bulge any barrels.

Even if you have to get special made-up bullets to match your barrel it is worth it from the standpoint of getting the flat nose only available with mono turned bullets.

All the rest is sales pitch and B. S.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
There was an Australian that had the Rib between the barrels of a popular French made double come apart with the firing of Mono's for memory.

That was me!

Yes, my Chapuis 9.3 came apart twice because I tried to work up loads for the Barnes X bullets and the gun had to go back to the factory for re-regulation - I can tell you that the French were very unhappy on the second occasion and, after that, I believe they started including notes with their doubles advising owners NOT to shoot mono-metal projectiles through their guns.

So I will not put any mono-metal projectiles anywhere near my doubles but will happily, and successfully, shoot Woodleigh solids all the time. There is a big difference between the steel jacketed Woodleighs and mono-metal projectiles.

quote:

There was an Australian that had the Rib between the barrels of a popular French made double come apart with the firing of Mono's for memory.

That was me!

Yes, my Chapuis 9.3 came apart twice because I tried to work up loads for the Barnes X bullets and the gun had to go back to the factory for re-regulation - I can tell you that the French were very unhappy on the second occasion and, after that, I believe they started including notes with their doubles advising owners NOT to shoot mono-metal projectiles through their guns.

So I will not put any mono-metal projectiles anywhere near my doubles but will happily, and successfully, shoot Woodleigh solids all the time. There is a big difference between the steel jacketed Woodleighs and mono-metal projectiles.

Or you could buy a blaser S2, and shoot a "ugly gun" that shoots everything!

Could not resist!

quote:

There is a big difference between the steel jacketed Woodleighs and mono-metal projectiles.

This is true and all monometal bullets are not equal.

quote:

Quickload Shot Start Pressure examples for .458 Bullets

GSC Drive Band Bullets = <1000psi
Woodleigh 500gr FMJ = 3626psi
Woodleigh 500gr Weldcore = 3626psi
Barnes X 500gr = 9427psi

This is not rocket science and the simple experiment illustrated here, proves graphically how the mechanism works.

In my limited understanding, it isn't just engraving pressure that is the issue..., I think...

Is this the case Gerrard, is there some other factor?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by BwanaBob:

quote:

There was an Australian that had the Rib between the barrels of a popular French made double come apart with the firing of Mono's for memory.

That was me!

Yes, my Chapuis 9.3 came apart twice because I tried to work up loads for the Barnes X bullets and the gun had to go back to the factory for re-regulation - I can tell you that the French were very unhappy on the second occasion and, after that, I believe they started including notes with their doubles advising owners NOT to shoot mono-metal projectiles through their guns.

So I will not put any mono-metal projectiles anywhere near my doubles but will happily, and successfully, shoot Woodleigh solids all the time. There is a big difference between the steel jacketed Woodleighs and mono-metal projectiles.

Might as well add me to the list,just got back from my first African hunt,double used,Chapuis 9.3,bullets used,Woodleigh softs & Barnes TSX's,Gun is presently with JJ getting checked out,after day two in the field,I could'nt hit the side of a barn with it,five misses,really peeed me off,had to finish off my hunt with a bolt action back up rifle,still had a great time,but wish I had gotten more use out of my little Chapuis!

Engraving pressure as well as barrel wall pressure/friction increases if a bullet or bullet core is very soft. The right balance between hardness and ductility is more important than what it seems and the conventional wisdom of soft lead core bullets being easier on a barrel than all monos, is fiction.

I worked as a 'smith from 1979 to 2004 and I have seen my share of busted and abused rifles. GSC has worked hard to solve these problems and we have succeeded very well in doing so.

At the risk of being tedious: There is no other make of bullet that is easier on the bore and system of a double, or any other rifle, than GSC drive band bullets. Do not make the mistake of tarring our monos with the same brush as other monos and do not believe the myth of the "soft" lead core.

All bullets will wear out a barrel eventually. Some just do it quicker than others and, as always, the choice is yours.

Some really good information here...
I just purchased several 500gr .474 bullets in the classifieds 2 weeks ago. 40 were Barnes banded solids, which I am thinking would be OK?
I also got 80 Barnes XLC 500gr...which I am now scared to use, based on Gerards pressure post.
Am I starting to grasp the concept here?
Thanks, ND

quote:

Originally posted by Nitrodave:
Some really good information here...
I just purchased several 500gr .474 bullets in the classifieds 2 weeks ago. 40 were Barnes banded solids, which I am thinking would be OK?
I also got 80 Barnes XLC 500gr...which I am now scared to use, based on Gerards pressure post.
Am I starting to grasp the concept here?
Thanks, ND

In the final analysis, IMO, there are currently only two mono-metal bullets that are safe in a double rifle, new or old, and they are the GS custom, and the North Fork FLS, and CPS! In my rifles no others need apply!

Mac has it right, imo. The Barnes isn't a driving band bullet, btw.

JPK

Hey maybe we can chat about CRF -vs- PF, the 45-70 on Elephant, or the Blaser S2...

Maybe there should be a new forum which combines all three for efficiency...

Visions of a new S2 chambered in 45-70, loaded with grooved aluminum bronze solids stalking Dumbo...whaddaya say MacD...?? We could take up a collection to commission the rifle for your next trip...

Thanks Gerard for the data and insight - appreciated.


I'm from the old school, use vintage DRs now and then and don't see any harm in using Woodleigh Solids through my rifles - Have shot a lot of them and have yet to see any problems with my bores - am I foolish, or just lucky???

JW out

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Hey maybe we can chat about CRF -vs- PF, the 45-70 on Elephant, or the Blaser S2...

Maybe there should be a new forum which combines all three for efficiency...

Visions of a new S2 chambered in 45-70, loaded with grooved aluminum bronze solids stalking Dumbo...whaddaya say MacD...?? We could take up a collection to commission the rifle for your next trip...

You do it, and I'll film it!

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Thanks Gerard for the data and insight - appreciated.


I'm from the old school, use vintage DRs now and then and don't see any harm in using Woodleigh Solids through my rifles - Have shot a lot of them and have yet to see any problems with my bores - am I foolish, or just lucky???

JW out

The Woodlieghs are fine in your double! They are simply a copy of the bullets used for 100 yrs in double rifles. If they were bad there would be fewer old doubles still doing a yomans' job on dangerous big game!

quote:

The Woodlieghs are fine in your double! They are simply a copy of the bullets used for 100 yrs in double rifles. If they were bad there would be fewer old doubles still doing a yomans' job on dangerous big game!

quote:

The Woodlieghs are fine in your double! They are simply a copy of the bullets used for 100 yrs in double rifles. If they were bad there would be fewer old doubles still doing a yomans' job on dangerous big game!

This is what I was told from day one, made sense to me, so, I adopted the "Use only Woodleighs" mindset. Some 30 DRs later and who knows how many dead critters....Still no problems to report!

JW out

quote:

The odd thing is that even with all these reports I don't believe anyone has posted a picture of a barrel damaged in such a manner.

Jason:

A picture of this type of damage to a rifle would be hard to photograph, IMHO.

When I purchased my Francotte .470 (proofed in 1927), JJ at Champlins confirmed that at one time, someone shot mono bullets out of the rifle as there is a very faint "wave" in the barrels near the muzzle. You can see it with the naked eye if you know what to look for and have the correct lighting. If you are coming to DSC in January, I will be there on Saturday and would be happy to show you the stressed rifling.

(And just an FYI to everyone, JJ slugged the barrels and the lands and grooves slugged the correct diameter so no damage was done to the barrels. I could get them re struck and re-blacked, but it isn't a problem for me right now.)

SO...

Roundnose solids are bad for DG because they do not track straight or penetrate well;

Flat-nosed solids are far superior because they track straight and penetrate well;

THEREFORE:

Roundnose solids (like Woodleigh) should never be used for dangerous game hunting if one expects to a)take game cleanly and b)escape with one's life ...

EXCEPT ...

If you are using a DR on dangerous game

THEN:

Roundnose solids (like Woodleighs) are perfectly adequate and acceptable and the only safe solid to use

UNLESS:

You have a supply of GS Custom or Northfork solids (as I do)

IN WHICH CASE:

One would be better off using their teeth and biting the DG to death rather than a RN Solid

Obviously havings some fun with this but there is some validity if one reads both the DR and BB forums on the "Great Bullet Debate".

Happy Holidays to all - my Merkel 500 NE is on it's way to me as I type!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
SO...

Roundnose solids are bad for DG because they do not track straight or penetrate well;

Woodleigh round nose solids penetrate straight.

For support of this contention, 465H&H posted a thread on the African Hunting form and polled readers asking for instances where STEEL JACKETED round nose solids had not penetrated straight. There were no reported instances. The cumulative elephant kill by posters who answered the query was well over 100 by my count of elephant killed by posters who's elephant hunting I was familiar with, and some guestimates.

I've shot roughly sixty Woodleigh solids into elephants and never had one go astray. 465H&H recenty posted that'd he'd shot ninety and none had veered from straight line. That's 150 between just two of us. You would think that in the 150, plus those shot by other posters in his thread, one or more would have gone astray if there was a tendency to do so.

On the other hand, flat nose, truncated cone solids like North Forks and GS Cutoms do penetrate further. But I've had three NF's veer. One mattered, the others were insignificant in regards to the outcome.

I believe, FWIW, that round nose solids have a strong tendency to tumble once they have decelerated greatly. But, that occurs after significant penetration, enough to do the job on brain shots or body shots, and they track straight anyway.

I've gone to loading a Woodleigh in the right barrel for the first shot which will be a brain shot, or at least a brain shot attempt. In the left I load a NF, becuase that shot will either be an insurance shot following a successful brain shot or a shot that might need all the penetration that can be mustered in the event of a missed brain shot.

Also, fwiw, I believe that NF's and GS Cutoms are easier on barrels and on double rifles than steel jacketed solids.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:


Also, fwiw, I believe that NF's and GS Cutoms are easier on barrels and on double rifles than steel jacketed solids.

JPK

Anyone else have the experience with using the same poweder charge with NF and GS as you do with non driving banded bullets? At least for me, always shows a little increase in velocity with the same charge. Gerard explaned that this is due to the lower pressures of the driving bands in general.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

If an unaware shooter were to push a Mono-solid say at .411 down a .408 bore - problems could result!

If there is a mismatch, one must hope that it is a true drive band solid. If the mono is a .411" GSC drive band bullet, the drive bands are .411" while shaft of the bullet is .400" in diameter. The combined volume of the .411" diameter drive bands, as well as the .0012" bullet shaft material that is displaced by the .408" rifling, remains much less that that of a conventional .408" bullet. A GSC drive band solid intended for a .411" bore will still be softer on the barrels of a .408" double rifle, compared to jacketed lead bullets of .408" diameter.

Gerard,

Based upon your comment, is it more important when using a drive band bullet to match the shaft diameter to the bore diameter of the barrel vis-à-vis the band diameter matching the groove diameter of the barrel?

I ask this question as I have a USA manufacture barrel with inch measurements of a 0.400” bore and 0.408” groove diameters and the GSC website does not list driving band solids in a 408 caliber, only a 411 caliber.

Thanks,
Jim

Gerard is a huge source of info on this point. I am going to use his www.gscustom.co.za solids and expanding

bullets for HUNTING if they shoot accurately in my vintage Osborne built double. I'll work up loads for SOFT POINT

Woodleighs too for hunting.

As most of you know, no one on here has been more supportive of using Woodleigh RN solids on elephant that me. So it is with extreme caution that I post the following experiences that I have had using Woodleigh solids in my two doubles. One of them is a G. Genschow double in 500/465 3 1/4". The other a Searcy Deluxe Grade double in 470 Nitro. I used the 480 grain Woodleigh softs in the 465 to develop loads and then checked a few shots with solids to assure that they hit in the same place as the solids. I used the 465 on my first 5 elephants. After the first year, I noticed that the right barrel was wandering it's shots 3 inches right or left of center. I blamed myself for quite awhile but eventually realized that the right barrel had gone off center. The left barrel continued to hit to point of aim. I sent it to J.J. for re-regulation. I haven't fired any Woodleigh solids through it since and it remains regulated. When I took delivery of the Searcy, I initially developed loads with the softs and then fired a few Woodleigh solids in it to check where they hit. Low and behold the right barrel went off just like the 465 with the left barrel remaining on center. I sent it back to Butch and he re-regulated it. I used it on several elephants on that hunt but when I returned the right barrel was off again. Back to Butch for re-regulation. I then fired a few solids though it and it went off again. I ended up having to use that way on 07 elephant hunt since I didn't have time to have it re-regulated again. I need to send it back again for re-regulation before my upcoming March hunt.

I am considering switching to a driving band solid for the coming hunt. I considered the GS Custom solid but recently a poster here showed pictures of some of them recovered from an elephant head and they showed more expansion than NF Cup Points. I don't want an expanding solid so I have eliminated them from consideration. 500 Grains sent me some NF and Bridger solids so they will be put to use on this next hunt.

I am not saying that Woodleigh solids caused my regulation problems but bring this up to see if anyone else has had a similar problem or if my experiences are a matter of bad luck or coincidence.

465H&H

465H&H In light of your experience with the Woodliegh solids, let me ask if anyone is aware of a change in the way the wooslieghs are made? Maybe a different aloy of the steel jacket material, or a harder core?

I've used the Woodliegh solids for yrs, in both new, and old double rifles without a problem, but I haven't used any lately. I have a supply of north Fork cups, and flat nose solids I use today, so a change could have taken place without me knowing! I hope this is not the case however, because I have always liked Woodliegh's products!