Gents:
Good day to you all.
A mate down under sent me this email about Sabatti doubles. Have any of you knowledge of this particular problem?
Thanks,
Cal

Interestingly quite a few members of our club (Big Game Rifle Club of Australia) have bought Sabatti doubles. One or two may have been in 9.3x74 but mainly in 450/400NE, 450NE and 500NE. In the first instance most seemed pleased with them. They looked nice for the price but some had the muzzle grinding which you discussed. This seemed odd as Sabatti put out a video showing them regulating their doubles in a fairly conventional fashion? Not withstanding that they seemed to shoot reasonably well.

The real problems seem to have come as they have been shot more. Early reports had the muzzle wedges and filler (which appears to be a metalized epoxy) falling out and now more serious problems of ribs coming off! I am also told Sabatti so far have been very unhelpful in regard to warrantee work.

I would be interested to hear more of the US experience with the Sabatti doubles.

Haven't seen any reports of these problems
on any of the forums apart from the muzzle
grinding issue.

Doesn't sound good at all although the response
isn't surprising.

I hadn't heard of that problem before either. I have a 450/400 that I've put about 60 rounds through with no issues. Tomorrow I'll pull it out and take a look around the muzzles for signs of problems mentioned by Cal.

As there are several Sabatti users which frequent the forum I would have expected to hear about this had they encountered problems.

I bought a Sabatti 45/70 two years ago and since then it has fired almost 1,000 rounds without any problems. I load it with cast bullets and keep the pressure at 18,000 psi or less. I enjoy shooting it so much that last November I added a 450/400 to the stable. So far it has fired a couple hundred rounds without problems.
Did they mention what kind of bullet they were shooting? After cutting a Hornady DGX in half on a mill and seeing how thick the steel jacket is I refuse to shoot any more of them.

Hi Cal,

Did your mate provide any pics or other documentation? Like the other replies, I have never heard these issues brought up here in the USA and I think we certainly would have, well before now. They have been available here for at least 5 years and only recently were imported into Oz.

For the record, I returned two Sabatti 500NE rifles because of the grinding and because they would not shoot.

I hate to see these kinds of undocumented issues in print and think it is irresponsible not to provide pics, at a minimum, to support such allegations. JMO.

Carl: I put over four hundred rounds through mine before I sent it back to Cabelas for the grinding issue and the rifle remained solid.

Thanks, gents.
Lion Hunter: Good point and I will email and request documentation.
Cheers,
Cal

Your get what you pay for, I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Carl: I put over four hundred rounds through mine before I sent it back to Cabelas for the grinding issue and the rifle remained solid.

Just curious Jorge. As I recall your Sabatti shot well after you played around with different loads. Sounds like it held up from your post above. If it shot well, held up well, why did you send it back just because the muzzles had been ground? I am not trying to cause a stir, just legitimately curious.

Metalized Epoxy??? Please. Mine has real solder in it (a 450 NE) and has held together after 250 rounds. If you have a barrel or rib separation problem, that is a one off workmanship defect. Solder can crystalize if cooled too fast. (Although the OP implies more than one??) Send it back.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Carl: I put over four hundred rounds through mine before I sent it back to Cabelas for the grinding issue and the rifle remained solid.

Just curious Jorge. As I recall your Sabatti shot well after you played around with different loads. Sounds like it held up from your post above. If it shot well, held up well, why did you send it back just because the muzzles had been ground? I am not trying to cause a stir, just legitimately curious.

I just could not live staring at that out of round muzzle! Pure and simple.

jorge-

Spoken like a true jet driver!

Semper Fi

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Hi Cal,

Did your mate provide any pics or other documentation? Like the other replies, I have never heard these issues brought up here in the USA and I think we certainly would have, well before now. They have been available here for at least 5 years and only recently were imported into Oz.

For the record, I returned two Sabatti 500NE rifles because of the grinding and because they would not shoot.

I hate to see these kinds of undocumented issues in print and think it is irresponsible not to provide pics, at a minimum, to support such allegations. JMO.

Lion Hunter

Sabatti's have been imported here for nearly as long as the US.

Secondly, knowing the likely source of this email and who owns
the guns, when it comes to doubles they have more experience
in that club that most on AR and other orgs around the world.

If it was just an / one individual with a new double I would
question it as well. That's not to say that photos wouldn't
be good.

I'll try to make a phone call to two of the people I think
it might be and / or who would know anyway.

Mine is in 450\400 and has about 400 rounds through it. No issues with the wedge or anything of that nature.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Carl: I put over four hundred rounds through mine before I sent it back to Cabelas for the grinding issue and the rifle remained solid.

Just curious Jorge. As I recall your Sabatti shot well after you played around with different loads. Sounds like it held up from your post above. If it shot well, held up well, why did you send it back just because the muzzles had been ground? I am not trying to cause a stir, just legitimately curious.

Even though some can shoot well on paper...ground muzzle rifles may (probably) produce bullet yaw that will make the bullet unstable in tissue.

Getns:
I'm working on additional info.
Cal

Cal,

Thanks for the feed back on the Sabatti. It’s interesting that others have not had the same problems. I will ask the owners of these rifles in Australia if they are happy to supply photos.

quote:

Even though some can shoot well on paper...ground muzzle rifles may (probably) produce bullet yaw that will make the bullet unstable in tissue.

Yes, that is exactly the bottom line!

Sabatti's goal was to achieve an acceptable test target at 50 yards; they achieved this by introducing instability in the bullet(s). The unintended consequence of this was to make some rifles that could not perform well at other distances.

That is why a rifle should be sighted in at 100yds.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
That is why a rifle should be sighted in at 100yds.

insert sound of toilet flushing HERE.

Regulated at 50 and sighted in at 100 at two entirely different things.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Hi Cal,

Did your mate provide any pics or other documentation? Like the other replies, I have never heard these issues brought up here in the USA and I think we certainly would have, well before now. They have been available here for at least 5 years and only recently were imported into Oz.

For the record, I returned two Sabatti 500NE rifles because of the grinding and because they would not shoot.

I hate to see these kinds of undocumented issues in print and think it is irresponsible not to provide pics, at a minimum, to support such allegations. JMO.

Lion Hunter

Sabatti's have been imported here for nearly as long as the US.

Secondly, knowing the likely source of this email and who owns
the guns, when it comes to doubles they have more experience
in that club that most on AR and other orgs around the world.

If it was just an / one individual with a new double I would
question it as well. That's not to say that photos wouldn't
be good.

I'll try to make a phone call to two of the people I think
it might be and / or who would know anyway.

Lion Hunter I also agree that unfounded claims are irresponsibly made. However In the case of Sabatti double rifles there seems to be a misunderstanding by the makers where cost cutting should be done in the building of a double rifle that works the way it is supposed to and still be affordable to the buyer.

The last place to cut cost in the building of a double rifle is in the regulation of the barrels. It has become evident that Sabatti has found this out, and that regulating a double rifle is far more important in a double rifle than it is in the shotguns they build.

The original poster, 505G, who reported this latest claim is very well versed in the workings and building of double rifles, (used to post as 500N here on AR and has been a long time poster on Nitro express ) . I have little doubt that the guy is just making claims he doesn’t believe, claims that came from another member of the big bore club of Australia. Those guys are about the most knowledgeable folks on double rifles outside the makers themselves.

It seems everyone wants to blame the messenger instead of the maker in the case of the Sabitti. I say any double rifle maker who allows the grinding of the muzzles of a double rifle that wasn’t regulated properly rather than re-regulate it as a FIX, is a maker that should be avoided like the plague.

It seems the people who buy these things don’t want to admit they made a mistake, and continue to kill the messenger who reports the poor regulation quality of the Sabatti double rifles. The old saying that “Where there is smoke there is usually fire” certainly applies where Sabatti double rifles are concerned, IMO!

I too would like to see the pictures of this latest claim, but I hold little hope that it is untrue. If true, this would not be the first time space-age glue was tried in the regulating of a double rifle that turned out to be a flop! Case-in-point was the Rogue River doubles that finally became the California double rifle with a prestigious UK name, that are no
longer in business!

............................................................Let the firing squad begine! .........

quote:

The original poster, 505G, who reported this latest claim is very well versed in the workings and building of double rifles, (used to post as 500N here on AR and has been a long time poster on Nitro express ) .

Mac

Thanks for your vote of support but someone else in Austtalia actually made the claims by emailing Cal Pappas who posted them here.

I said the people involved know their stuff.

I haven't had time to follow this up myself (as in Speak with people at the BGRC) and by the looks of Cal's post, he is waiting for more information and photos to be sent to him.

If I find out anything, I will post it for sure.

I will say this. I very much doubt that someone would trouble someone of Cal Pappas's standing with such an email if they were not genuinely concerned.

More to follow when I get time.

It is one model only, the 9.3 model.

At least 2 if not 3 guns.

Top rib has come off at the end
- or sprung.

Before top rib came off a "plasticky"
type material came out from between
the barrels - he said a bit like Devcon.

Guns are going back to Sabatti to have
barrels replaced or new guns.

Will let you know of anything else.