JJ at Champlins, got my Harkom 450BPE fixed, so It chambers now. I picked it up while in Enid today. I had 8 rounds left in the car, from a shoot last weekend. They were 46 grains IMR4198 with 2gr dacron, and a 300gr Meister FN hard cast.
My standing leaf is engraved "100yds". At 50yds it printed 8" spread and 8" high. At 100yds it printed 12" spread and 6" high. I think I am crossing and need to slow down and/or use a heavier bullet. Before everyone asks velocity...I was on my way home from work, and didn't have the chrono with me. I was also too damned excited to walk up to the target after 1 shot, to see which side it was on . I will load some more 300gr slugs and pay more attention to what is happening.
It just seems that, if they were not crossing, I would have to speed way up??? Scary!!! Looks like a heavier slug, going slower, would pull the pattern down to match the sights, and un-cross the pattern.
I will try some 300's a grain faster and several grains slower, to see what it does. I need to get some 350 and 405 cast to try, as well. Comments welcome...

The gun printed very consistant (1"-2"/each barrel)and should be most accurate, once I find regulation. Twist is 1:36" with a steep angle throat.
Thanks, ND

Nitrodave

I hope that "2gr Dacron" is incorrect, you should be using more like 12 grains.

Two grains will caused a ringed chamber for sure.

One way to tell where the right bbl hits vs the left is to put up 2 targets. Shoot the right bbl on the right target, and the left bbl on the left target.

Drop down to 42 grains and see what happens.

Make SURE the dacron is COMRESSED between the bullet and the powder.

450#2,
I will try the 42gr with 12gr filler, but I'm betting on a heavier slug...we'll see. Any suggested loads for 350's and 405's???

Please elaborate on the "Ringed Chamber". The 46gr load with 2gr dacron was the load JJ gave my friend to shoot in his 1878 Lang...it prints great. Is there a danger of this load damaging his gun??? I'm not disputing this, just trying to get smarter...
Thanks, ND

Before I started loading for my 450 No2, which needs filler for even powders like IMR3031, I did a lot of reaing up on fillers.

I found many instances of ringed chambers when only a small amount of filler was used.

I never found any problems when the dacron filler was compressed.

In my 450 No2 when I load Nitro For Black loads I use 15 grains of dacron.

With the 350, and 405 gr bullets I would start with 40 grains of IMR 4198.

ND,

Stop shooting without a chronograph until you have your load developed. That's too nice a gun too have something happen.

I agree with NE450 No2, two grains of Dacron is too little. All information I have read suggests the Dacron be compressed.

Dave
what they said.
Dacron weight should be 8-12 grains.

Regulation is very dependant on bullet weight, I am not aware of any doubles of that era using 405 gr. You'll probably succeed with 300-365 gr.

Use two targets for checking right and left.

Bench technique is important. Rifle should be able to recoil similar to offhand. ie don't hunker down like a benchrest rifle and grip the toe with the left hand. Use a fairly upright sitting position holding the forend like offhand( left hand glove for hot barrels).Shots right and left should be fired fairly quickly, within 5-10 seconds I have been told.

glad to hear you've got the old girl firing. Keep us up to date with your progress.

Larry

Thanks to all for the posts.

My technique is correct for shooting DR's...this is my 3rd. I shoot from a standing rest, with back of right hand on bag, holding barrels. Seem backwards??? The world is backwards to me, as I am a left handed.

I will try some lighter loads with the 300gr slugs and more dacron...compressed as prescribed. I am also ordering some 350's.

450#2,
I'm sorry...maybe I'm just slow, but I still don't have a clue what a "ringed chamber" is???
I have never heard the term before you posted it in my last thread. You stated that the powder burns through the open gap in the case, hits the bullet like a barrel obstruction, and results in ringing the chamber (may not be word for word). Is this a physical ring, sticking in or out, in the chamber? Is it just some kind of harmonic...like a bell ringing? Does it cause physical damage? Again, I am not disputing this, and greatly appreciate your help, but I am just not understanding.
Thanks, ND

Dave,
OOPS !!! My apology on the technique, I forgot you are an experienced Nitro double shooter.

Larry

A "ringed chamber" is a bulge in the chamber, usually at the base of the bullet. Once ringed, the brass expands into the bulge, and extraction is impossible. Short of sleeving the chamber, the rifle is toast. If a filler is used at all, it should fill up the air space remaining in the case, to the point of compression. Damage resulting from the use of fillers is usually the result of a tiny little tuft of dacron, toilet paper, etc, placed on top of a small powder charge leaving a lot of air space in the case between the filler and the base of the bullet. A lot more dacron is needed in this case.

I wouldn't try any bullets over 365 grains, as that's the heaviest bullet the NFB was loaded with. Increasing bullet weight runs pressures up fast.
--------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Chief,
No problem...I have hell keeping track of who has what. I have only had DR's for the last 5 years or so, but I have been swinging sxs shotguns for about 35 years....there is not a better looking gun on earth, than the side by sides.

400,
Thanks! I get it now. I had never heard of this before, but then, this is my first go with a filler. I will make sure to use plenty of dacron, from here out.

I will be loading some more tonight...we'll see how they shoot.I will let you know.
Thanks to all for the posts!!!
ND

Nitrodave

There are several people here on AR that have alot of experience loading and shooting double rifles.

However, there are are two, that I would pay a lot of attention to what THEY SAY.

One is ME , The other is 400Nitro.

I have shot over EIGHT THOUSAND rounds through Double Rifles.

I have only BLOWN up one...

BUT, it was a Holland & Holland Dominion 500/465...
And they have been known to "scatter" once in a while.

450#2,
I loaded your 42grains with 12 gr dacron tonight, under a 300RNFP Meister...I like this profile better than the 300FP, because it has a bigger meplat. I also loaded 44grains, and 46grains...again with the 12 grains of filler. I will shoot tomorrow or Saturday, and see what happens.
Thanks for all the help, ND

Nitrodave

Let me know how she shoots.

For a double to hunt deer and pigs, black bear over bait, and elk in the thick a 450 BPE is a great choice.

I would hunt brown bear in the alders with it as well, but I am crazy that way...

I have handled and shot some of the DRSS members 450 BPE doubles and I liked them.

Well, it's regulated now. I switched to the Meister 300gr RNFP...same weight as the Meister 300FP, but crimps with 25% more bullet sticking out. This one crimps about mid way down the slug. Loaded IMR4198 at 42,44,46,and 48grains, all with 12 grains of dacron. They are all printing 1"-1.5" apart, level, and all at about the same height. I thought this was odd ???
Now the really weird part. The groups listed above were shot at 50yds, centered, and about 8" high of Point of Aim....my standing leaf says 100yds(it also has folding leaves at 200,300, and 400yds)I used the standing leaf for all shots.
Thinking that it would drop down closer to POA, when shot at 100yds, I backed up. I shot 2 rounds of each load(42,44,46,48) and they printed from 1"-3" higher yet ???
The groups were still level and 1"-2" apart, so I am confident that I was having a great day, being steady.
It seems to me that I just need a taller front sight, and I'm ready to go. I can't believe how well it's regulating.
ND

Nitrodave

Good shooting.

Does you rifle have a 28" barrel???

450#2,
They are 26" damascus tubes.

You are right about the 12 grains of dacron making a white cloud. That's a lot of "Teddy Bear Guts" hanging in the air!

I am simple thrilled at the way this all came together. I couldn't ask for better groups. Thanks for all your help!!!

I have a set of 450#2 dies and about 60 cases. I am going to punch out one of my Ruger #1 .458WM to tide me over until I can find a DR in that chambering. I have always wanted a 450#2. I am saving now for a 8 x 60 double, that I have been eyeing.
ND

Nitrodave

AS much as I love the 450 No2, My favorite rifle is a double in that calibre I just do not see thee "Need" to rechamber a Ruger No1 in that calibre.

You might want to wait. You might find a 450 3 1/4" double you like.

450 No2 double rifles are hard to find.

Dave-

The rifle was already regulated.
You just figured out a load that runs right!

quote:

Originally posted by Nitrodave:
but crimps with 25% more bullet sticking out. This one crimps about mid way down the slug...

On that crimp -- try the same load without a crimp.
If your dies and expanding plug are set up properly you won't need the crimp and without it your brass will last longer.

On bullet choices -- I've seen radically different performance between different makes/models of bullets that look very very similar and weigh the same.
For instance, my 500/450 3-1/2" Magnum BPE works beautifully with the Hornady RNSN 350gr but prints like a shotgun with the Woodleigh of nearly identical profile.
I ended up sectioning and measuring the jackets, also did hardness tests on the cores and jackets and found that the two bullets were quite different after all.

Overall length of your cartridges can make a difference too, and it isn't uncommon for guys to end up finding the 'final spiff' to the right load by way of bullet seating depth.


Good for you in your efforts.
Try it without the crimp and see how things work. Consistent neck tension is important, see if you can get what you need without hammering on your brass with the crimp die.



Cheers
Tinker

Dave, glad it's working for you.
Larry

Congratulations, Dave! Thanks for the report!

Gentlemen,
I just got word from my friend that we are taking our 450BPE's, to shoot some 400 pound, pissed off pigs, in 2 weeks. This is a high fence hunt. Owner said there is 26 new boars at 350-400 pounds that attacked the truck when they released them. The pigs are staying in "head-high" grass, in the river bottom land.
This should be a blast with a couple of 1800's 450BPE's.(Joseph Harkom and Joseph Lang). It's been several years since I've shot some pigs, so I'm pretty excited. I will try to get some pictures.
ND