A recent discussion I had with my friend LionHunter got me to thinking. Whenever I think of a double rifle, I always think of it from the perspective of a client hunter. However, as most of you guys who have hunted dangerous game can attest, things can happen very fast and maybe your PH won't be in the right place at the right time to pull your chips out of the fire.

Now, all things made by man are fallible. You have to wring out a bolt gun before tackling dangerous game to make sure that feed and function is right. Similarly, you have to wring out a double to make sure it is in proper working order as well. It has to be regulated well and I would recommend at firing at least 100 rounds through it to make sure it is operating properly. I had a friend who bought a high quality double and it broke a firing pin in Africa leaving him with a single shot. I have a nice, new little Chapuis that is boxed up ready to go back for repairs for a similar trigger problem. What is is that Kirk Douglas says..."you went into battle with an untested weapon?"

Now, here is my question and I want you to think about this from the perspective of a PH. If money is no object and you had to wade into the bush to sort out that wounded buffalo or lion, what double would you pick. Me, I love those French guns, both the Chapuis and the Verney-Carron but when the chips were down, my palms were really sweaty, and I could grab any rifle in the rack, it would be my Krieghoff or a Heym. What say you?

Damn, I should have never watched that Ivan Carter video!

Dave,

100% confidence in any and all of the Verney-Carron doubles I have owned and also 100% certain it would be one of them is said circunstance.

I didn't know you had bad experiences with V-C doubles to cause you to not have faith in one.

But its all about confidence in functional equipment.

Mine would be my 600NE, but any of my V-Cs would do for the same reason.

What ever double in a suitable caliber that I own. I wouldn't own a double that I couldn't count on under those circumstances.

465H&H

Doc:

I have never had a bad experience with a VC and to be honest, haven't ever even HEARD of a bad experience with a VC. They are fantastic guns. As I mentioned, I am sending my little Cpapuis back to repair a broken trigger. When it's fixed, I am sure it will function perfectly but it makes a guy think. If I remember right, Todd had some difficulty with a bolt gun I think that made him a little skitish about the gun as well. Can't really remember. There is something about my K-gun that just gives me confidence. Maybe it's just in my mind because it's a larger caliber and everyone keeps telling me my .375 is a "rat gun". Just wanted to toss the question out.

My Krieghoff without question. It seems to be more of a machine made product, not subject to the ideosyncrasies of hand fitted DRs. (I am talking about the internal lock mechanisms) Case in point, my new Chapuis would fire with the safety on. I fixed it myself, but most would have had to return it. I know, they all are machine made and hand fitted to different degrees. No hate mail please, all is my opinion.

Good day all:

I'd buy a vintage double first. If it has worked for the past century chances are it will work on tomorrow's safari.

For a new double, the VC seems to be the best combination of quality, utility, and price.

As to caliber, anything from .450-400 up will work fine. I think the shooter's recoil toleration is more a factor bullet diameter.

Cheers.
Cal

Paul: We have something else in common. I have rebuilt, restored, and raced (1/4 mile) two 1969 Corvettes: both 427s. One a 4-speed coupe with three two barrels and the other a rag top auto trans. Even an old, balding, broken down, fat man with diabetes (s I am) could get a date in those cars!

All guns can break at the wrong time whether old or new. This is why a double has always been used for dangerous game when the chips are down. If one side malfunctions you still have a single shot. Or should I say another shot.

Dave,

I did have a trigger issue with a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby. Never trusted the gun again. Wayne just put a new trigger in it so now I'm in the process of ringing it out. Got maybe 20 rounds through it with the new trigger. Somewhere around 200 more and I'll start thinking about trusting it again. Probably! Maybe!!

Truth be told, from a functionality standpoint, the Merkel that I traded, which has now been purchased by a fellow AR member, was a rock solid rifle. I would never hesitate to take that rifle into any fight with DG anywhere. Honestly, I'm still ringing out my VC and although I expect it will prove to be 100% reliable at all times, I don't know it like I did that Merkel just yet.

There really is only one make of DR that has multiple reports of problems that I remember hearing about. That is Sabatti. Those complaints stem from regulation issues and the dremmel "fix". Word is that those problems are behind them. Even so, I still wonder what other corners were cut since they scrimped on regulation. Sam seems to like his Sabatti and he has more DR experience than I so I would have to defer to his expertise concerning those guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
A recent discussion I had with my friend LionHunter got me to thinking. Whenever I think of a double rifle, I always think of it from the perspective of a client hunter. However, as most of you guys who have hunted dangerous game can attest, things can happen very fast and maybe your PH won't be in the right place at the right time to pull you chips out of the fire.

Now, all things made by man are fallible. You have to wring out a bolt gun before tackling dangerous game to make sure that feed and function is right. Similarly, you have to wring out a double to make sure it is in proper working order as well. It has to be regulated well and I would recommend at firing at least 100 rounds through it to make sure it is operating properly. I had a friend who bought a high quality double and it broke a firing pin in Africa leaving him with a single shot. I have a nice, new little Chapuis that is boxed up ready to go back for repairs for a similar trigger problem. What is is that Kirk Douglas says..."you went into battle with an untested weapon?"

Now, here is my question and I want you to think about this from the perspective of a PH. If money is no object and [b]you had to wade into the bush to sort out that wounded buffalo or lion, what double would you pick. Me, I love those French guns, both the Chapuis and the Verney-Carron but when the chips were down, my palms were really sweaty, and I could grab any rifle in the rack, it would be my Krieghoff or a Heym.[/B] What say you?

Damn, I should have never watched that Ivan Carter video!

Dave I say your pick is a good one! There are others as well, but no matter which you choose another of your opinions also applies. The rifle must be proven to be as reliable as you can make it. !

This is something I have always tried to cram into a new guys head, that if there is one fault in the rifle you choose, that if forgotten in the heat of battle, or is a liability as to RELIABILITY, then it is not the proper choice!

............................................................................

Todd,

Yes I like my Sabatti so much that it is now my hunting double. It shoots great and I don't worry about dings and rust on it. No it ain't the prettiest double I own but so what. It has 100s of rounds through it with no problems.

Now back to Dave's question. Like I said any gun can break and you would hope that one you paid $20000 for would be less likely to break than a $500. Well its all in the way it was made and what it was made out of. Design also plays a BIG part in whether a gun is reliable or not. There are some expensive guns out there that scare the crap out of me the way they are made. Lets talk about a poorly made double or even a cheaply made double. There are two totally different guns there put into one. Even if the gun has flaws the likely hood of both sides failing at the same time are very slim. Yes you may have a firing pin break or something else malfunction but there is still a whole gun there ready to go. Not so with a bolt gun. Oh I agree bolt guns are tanks but still it is only one gun and things do go wrong. If a double has lets say an ejector break would it cause the gun not to work? NO you just have an extractor gun then everything else still functions normally. Have an extractor break on a bolt gun and you are screwed. Yes you can still shoot a bolt gun with a broken extractor but you will have to have a ramrod to knock out the empties.
Westley Richards made hand detachable locks so they were easy to clean and repair. Very nice guns but they made them this way because things do happen and sometimes break. You aren't going to repair them during a charge.

Sam

What is 100% reliable? What is the factor that you say its 100% reliable. Oh I've shot it 10 times and it hasn't failed yet!!! 10,50,100,1000 times? Now don't misunderstand me. I don't want to buy junk and if someone has had lots of problems with a certain gun then you better make a wide path around it. I am saying I don't care if you have paid $50 or $5000000 for a gun it doesn't nean it isn't going to fail the next shot. Nothing is 100% reliable! Yes you can have 100% confidence in it but thats about all. Buy the weapon you think is the best for you and then put it through the works.
Having worked on many guns over my life I will have to say the best made I have ever seen is hands down the older H&H guns but this doesn't mean they are 100% reliable. A lot of different people built them and there are good ones and bad ones.
I've never owned a Chevy that went over 40000 miles without major problems. You might have had one that went 500000 miles without turning a screw.

Sam

Well, maybe 100% reliable wasn't the best choice of words as it is true, anything man made can and will fail at some point. Doc probably stated it best when he said he has 100% confidence in his VC.

I had 100% confidence in the Merkel. I'm not at that point yet with the VC as it is still new to me and I just don't have enough experience with it yet to give it that stamp of approval. Going off what others have reported about their VC's and my initial experience with it so far, it probably will be confidence inspiring, but that has yet to be proven at this point.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
What is 100% reliable? What is the factor that you say its 100% reliable. Oh I've shot it 10 times and it hasn't failed yet!!! 10,50,100,1000 times?

I am saying I don't care if you have paid $50 or $5000000 for a gun it doesn't nean it isn't going to fail the next shot. Nothing is 100% reliable!
Sam

Sam you are absolutely correct anything man can make man can break! I thought about that when I wrote it, and inteded to edit before posting, but simply forgot and posted without the edit.

What I intended to re-write was The rifle need to be as trouble free as you can make it, but Mr. Murphy can fubr anything!

Still starting out with a make or model rifle
that has a large amount of problems found by many buyers needs to be passed in my opinion.

I will say the a rifle that has 100 or so rounds through it will usually find any serious flaws, but you are right, shot 101 may be the triptrigger that finds that fault!

................That better?

Mac, I do the same thing. I think we are all on the same page.

Thanks,

Sam

Actually, I have not heard of any mechanical problems with Sabatti; certainly not with the two I have owned. I completely disassembled one and found it to appear well made. So, for me, with recently made DRs, for mechanical issues; it is Sabatti-zero, Krieghoff-zero, and Chapuis- one.

We are on the same page. I think you have to put at least 100 rounds through it to wring it out. Then, you start to get confidence in it.

The problem most of us here have is that we need to really get to know our rifles, all of them, intimately, so that absolute confidence is a given. In the past I have bought and traded so much that I found that difficult at times.

I am working hard to get my personal collection down to one that I really want, performs well, and a collection that I have practiced with and have absolute confidence in on any circumstance.

I think my Grandfather had a real advantage over me in that he could only afford one rifle, and he became very good with it, taking all kinds of game to feed his family. That's when a gun has true value.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Paul: We have something else in common. I have rebuilt, restored, and raced (1/4 mile) two 1969 Corvettes: both 427s. One a 4-speed coupe with three two barrels and the other a rag top auto trans. Even an old, balding, broken down, fat man with diabetes (s I am) could get a date in those cars!

Oooooohhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

'69 Vette ... With a 427 triple and 4-speed (Hurst T-grip, I'm sure) ... My favorite Vette and maybe favorite car of all time. Now if you said it was one of the few ZL-1s I'd be flying up with all the toys I have to make a trade.

'69 427 'Vette and '71 Hemi 'Cuda - heaven on wheels.

Anything that is man made can malfunction, can break.

I do think in most cases, you get what you paid for.

You just need to know what exactly you are paying for.

For instance, lets take Heym Doubles as an example.

Last Year:
A 450/400, 450NE, 470, or 500NE PH[Professional Hunter] cost $17,000.

The Safari Grade, in the same calibres cost $23,000.

The PH is the EXACT same GUN, as the Safari Grade.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE QUALITY OF THE GUN between the two...
They both handle like a Heym. They both shoot like a Heym.

The Safari Grade cost more because, it has nicer wood, it has nice engraving, and a higher polish.

In both cases you get WHAT you pay for.

IF you have the money, and want to spend it you can get a Heym that costs $100,000, or more.
And you will get what you pay for.

But it will still be a Heym Double Rifle with all of the things that make a Heym Double, a GUN you can bet your life on.

Of all the rifles I have owned, the two I trust most in order are the Rem BDL in 270 I've owned since the late 60s. Over 3000 rounds through it, almost all handloads, hunted both DG (grizzly) and all sorts of North American game with it. Over 500 days of hunting with it (maybe 1000?) Never any failure of any kind. The new ones are NOT the same quality.

Secondly, my CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery. Had lots of trouble getting it to feed properly between Harlan, Wayne and finally Kevin it feeds flawlessly. Wayne replaced the trigger, straightened and filled the bolt handle and replaced the safety with his 3 pos M70 type. The rifle is so solid, and very accurate. I hope to have half as many hunting days with it as I have with my 270

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
What ever double in a suitable caliber that I own. I wouldn't own a double that I couldn't count on under those circumstances.

465H&H

Some of the old professional hunters(ivory) liked double hammer guns because they were silent and you knew for sure whether or not they were cocked and if locks were working.

I love the old double hammer rifles as well. They are wonderfully accurate, at least the ones I have owned.


Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
I am working hard to get my personal collection down to one that I really want, performs well, and a collection that I have practiced with and have absolute confidence in on any circumstance.

Me too