Todd: Agreed and correct. But presuming all things are equal, New Guy is also correct regarding his assessment.

I also agree with New Guy. But to clarify, stock fit being where it should be, and with no more experience than I have with Doubles as a lot of you gents of this thread, a properly fitting rifle in a heavier weight should kick a bit less. The field grade that Butch is making for me, I asked him to make it a bit heavier 11.5 - 12 lbs. I don't mind carrying the extra lb, that's what slings are for or gunbearers. The trade off will be worth it to me.
just my .0002

Mike:
You can post the bones if you'd like. I was surprised so much was removed.
Cal

Recoil is recoil and IMO,there is no such thing as two rifles chambered for the same cartridge and one having more recoil than the other.It is just that one may be able to manage recoil better.IMO,managing recoil has more to do with weight distribution than stock fit.The rifle should feel heavy as close to the shooter as possible.The weight should not be spread out evenly over the entire length of the rifle or feel heavy toward the muzzle.You should feel most of its weight over your left hand keeping it as close to the action as possible.
Also,when a rifle manages recoil better it does not make it feel diminished.It just prevents your hand from smacking you in the face or the action from biting into your hand.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Another example proving the point that stock fit and shape are more important than weight would be to take 2 rifles, same caliber, say 500NE, same weight, with the same load. One a Kreighoff with straight stock, the other a Merkel with exaggerated drop at the heel. Again, exact same weight. Anyone think these two guns will "kick" the same in terms of what the shooter feels?

Todd:

Wouldn't that depend on the shooter? I kinda like a bit straighter stock like the K-gun but you seemed to do pretty well with the Merkel.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Another example proving the point that stock fit and shape are more important than weight would be to take 2 rifles, same caliber, say 500NE, same weight, with the same load. One a Kreighoff with straight stock, the other a Merkel with exaggerated drop at the heel. Again, exact same weight. Anyone think these two guns will "kick" the same in terms of what the shooter feels?

Todd:

Wouldn't that depend on the shooter? I kinda like a bit straighter stock like the K-gun but you seemed to do pretty well with the Merkel.

Yes Dave, it certainly does depend on the shooter. Notice, I carefully did not say the K-gun would produce less perceived recoil with the straight stock. Nor did I say the Merkel would produce less perceived recoil. I asked if anyone thinks these two guns will have the SAME perceived recoil. Some, depending on their build, will find the K-Gun fits them better while some, like myself, will find the Merkel fits better.

There is simply no denying the fact that an 11 lb gun in a certain caliber with a thin butt plate (with proper recoil pad of course) and a straight stock will transfer that same amount of free recoil energy to the shooter's shoulder differently than the same 11 lb gun in the same caliber with a thick or wide butt plate (with proper recoil pad of course) and excessive drop at the heel. LOP, height of the comb, and cast on or off will also play a part as well as to a lesser degree, whether or not the grip is open or closed. To take it to the extreme, one could have an 11 lb gun with nothing but a 2" diameter wooden dowel for a buttstock. That 2" diameter dowel end pressed against the shoulder WILL most definitely transfer the recoil differently than a proper buttstock on a rifle like a VC. An extreme example for sure, but it makes the point.

So yes Dave, it is person dependent and how a stock fits that particular person. Tygersman, yes, all other things being equal, weight would play a part. But the point I was trying to make is that just adding weight to a rifle without addressing the fit of the stock can very easily result in a rifle that is overly heavy and still kicks the crap out of you in terms of perceived recoil. Proper stock design will result in a rifle that is much lighter and is pleasant to shoot. You can also end up with a rifle that is too heavy but is pleasant as well as a rifle that is too light and a demon! 3 of these 4 options are less than desirable.

Going back to that extreme example of the 2" dowel buttstock. Do you think a rifle so designed in 500NE that weighs 16 lbs will be easier to handle in terms of recoil than a 500NE that weighs 10 lbs with a properly fitted stock? Again, my point is that weight is secondary to proper fit, within reason of course.

Proper fit is bullshit,IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Proper fit is bullshit,IMO.

You are indeed a total idiot!!

The only rifle that beats the hell out of me and that I am honestly scared to shoot is my CZ 458 lott.This rifle has swelled up my nose on more than one occasion.No other rifle I have comes close.When I shoulder it the only thing that feels different than my other rifle is the weight distribution.The stock looks dimensionally exact compared to my other rifles( measured exact).When I shoulder it most of its weight does not fall over my left hand or the forearm but it is distributed evenly throughout the entire length of the rifle such that it makes it feel light.However the balance puts it at the same weight as my other rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Proper fit is bullshit,IMO.

You are indeed a total idiot!!

Only to people who have not much experience shooting rifles.DoubleDon-what a joke!

George, the joke is in your pants. Put the crack pipe down and quit drinking the bong water.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
George, the joke is in your pants. Put the crack pipe down and quit drinking the bong water.

I can smell your hash breath from here, DON.

The question still stands,, How many DR's have you owned or at least shot to arrive at these ficticious conlcusions Shothiswad?
0?
1?
2?
3?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Proper fit is bullshit,IMO.

Shootaway

You have outdone yourself with the above quote,
plus maybe answered why you spray your bullets
all over a target like a shotgun.

I dont guess proper fit matters much if your hunting rabbits in your back lot with your pappy's 22 as long as you can see the sights.

I do know my old night shift Sgt had a weatherby 460 w/a 26' barrel. He is about 6'4" with long arms and I'm about 5'11" on a good day. We took the 460 out one night, on duty, in uniform, and gave her a go.

He had some factory 510 grain FMJs, some 300 grains loaded hot and some 405 grains at about 2600. The stock was TOO DAMMED LONG to begin with, and my ballistic vest didnt help matters any. Oh yea, it was an old model w/o the magnaport or brake.

I started with the 300 grain and it was plenty snappy, then the 405's were just painful. I should've stopped there, but I got goaded into shooting 3 rounds of 510gr FMJ's.

It hurt like hell and luckily I got a call to back up a Deputy about 10 miles away, so I got in my car and left. About a minute into my drive my left shoulder started throbbing and the pain radiated into my arm.

I honestly thought I was having a heart attack, it hurt so bad. I dug into my duty bag for some aspirin, (try doing that at 80 mph on a country road), which did nothing for the pain but convinced me I wasn't haveing a M.I.! The pain/brusing/swelling lasted about a week, IIRC.

Now I've shot 416 taylors and rigby's, 458 win mags, 45-70 loaded wide open in a Ruger#1, enough 12 gauge slugs to fill a trash can, but NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, ever hurt as badly as that ill-fitting weatherby.

So to blatently say that proper fit is bullshit shows to one and all you've never fired anything of any consequence.

Regards,
Eterry

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Proper fit is bullshit,IMO.

George:

I think you may be mistaken about this. Of course, weight and caliber come into play to a large extent. So does velocity of recoil. For example, I think my 500/.416 would be a handful for a beginning shooter because, like a .416 Rigby, there is a good amount of velocity to the recoil. While I think about 10.5 pound rifle is a good compromise weight for carrying the 500/.416, I have no doubt that for shooting at the range most guys would prefer a heavier gun. The rifle seems to fit me pretty well so I don't have much trouble with it. I bought it to actually hunt with so I will suffer a bit more recoil to increase portability. Once you get into the 450, 470, and 500 class rifle, fit gets really important. I can't speak for everyone but for me, a double much over 10.5 pounds is just to heavy for me to carry anymore. Especially in the bigger boomers, fit is critical. All guns are not equal. My friends Heym 500 just seemed to beat the heck out of me where my lighter 500 K-gun does not. Is the K-gun a better gun? Not a chance. It's just that it fits me better than that lovely Heym. Length of pull, drop, and cast make a big difference.

Good hunting George.

Guys:
Anyone who writes proper fit is bullshit is only pulling your chain. Let it go. I mean nobody, repeat nobody, threepeat NOBODY can be that stupid.
Cal

PS. That is the problem with us folks who cherish vintage double rifles. Sometimes the perfect rifle is far from the perfect fit. We buy it for what it is and live with it. If we find the perfect rifle that fits as it should, all the better. I've bought old doubles made for men that were six inches taller than I and eight inches shorter. But to find one made 100+ years ago that fits as if it was made for me is the zenith of what turns my crank in the world of double rifles. But to make the above comment as to fit, one has to TRY to be that off base!

Cal, you were a teacher,,
Remember the kids that sat in the back of the class chewing crayons and paper? The one disrupting the class and always in trouble?

Mulitply that by 50....

450 10LB
470 10 LB
500 11 LB

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
Cal, you were a teacher,,
Remember the kids that sat in the back of the class chewing crayons and paper? The one disrupting the class and always in trouble?

Mulitply that by 50....

Yep, after 4 years on AR, Shootforshit is the only critter I have ever placed on my ignore list. He has no redeeming qualities.