Hi JPK,

So now that HORNADY is going to make 450 NE ammo,

[and brass too for the reloaders] are you considering

the idea of rechambering your M. Thys .458 Win Mag

calibered DR to the lower presure/flanged icon?

Obviously not JPK but this has been discussed before. Once it's rechambered, it'll need to be re-regulated and then there's no guarantee that it can be done with a minimum of work. I believe JJ said something to that effect. When JPK comes on line, he'll tell you.

If I had bought the rifle, I'd have done it on the spot before taking it home, before the new ammo was even announced! However, JPK will not re-chamber it, IMO, because he has fallen in love with that rifle just the way it is. He is somewhat justified in that opinion, because he hasn't had a problem in the field when very close to his favorite game animal, the elephant, at least yet.
JJ also said he should leave it unchanged, unless he had a problem, and that was probably good advice, coming from JJ. I guess we will find out if it was good advice, depending on where JPK is when, or if he has a problem!

In my case there wouldn't have been a doubt in my mind that I would have re-chambered it, and I very much doubt the re-regulating would have been needed, but if it did, JJ could handle the job.

My stand point really comes from what will sell as very inexpensive,

easily acquired brass from HORNADY, that has the benefit of the RIM

to boot. I am sure he could have a rechambering and without doing

anything with re-regulation, hand load the 450 NE ammo to "Fly Right"!

Jack, 475Guy, Mac,

Just to cover some background, When I bought the rifle I was 100% sure that I was going to rechamber it to 450NE 3 1/4". I priced and scheduled the work with JJ before I bought the rifle.

Also recall that JJ was an apprentice to Marcel Thys, maker of my rifle, at the time my rifle was made. When I conditionlly bought the rifle, subject to three weeks' review for JJ's inspection and then mine, and subject to how it shot as well, it was shipped directly to JJ for his evaluation. JJ found the rifle in like new condition with no evidence it had been even fired outside of regulation. JJ shot the rifle and reported that both barrels shot extremely well and that the rifle was very, very well regulated and that he doubted that he could reregulate the rifles as well as it was regulated since past a point, it takes some luck to get a rifle to shoot so well.

JJ's examination of the ejection system revealed that the rifle has what JJ believes to be the best and most fool proof system for a double rifle shooting rimless cartridges. (I've posted photos here before, but the gist is that the "clips" that engage the groove below the belt contact substantially more area the other alternatives.) JJ tried and couldn't make the rifle fail. He told me to buy the rifle and reconsider the rechamber and instead shoot and shoot the rifle to try to find a problem.

I followed his advice. About 800 rounds and no issues with either extration/ejection or shooting loose because of pressure.

Got to run right now, will continue later.

JPK

Our friend here continues to sound quite happy
with his possession... It sounds like we

have an, "If it ain't broke DON'T FIX IT! type
scenario here. Good for Him!

Jack,

Your not wrong.

To continue:

JJ told me the rechamber and ejector work would be $600. He told me that there was a 50/50 chance of the rifle needing reregulation if it was rechambered, about $600 if required. If it needed rechambering then there was a fair chance that the rifle would need reblacking (reblueing to us Americans), about $600 if required. So worst case ~$1,800 or so.

I bought the rifle really right and it wasn't going to be sold at anytime in the foreseeable future so the $'s were just not an issue.

I did send the rifle back to JJ to have the triggers lightened, to have the safety freed up some, to change out front bead and add a flip up "night sight" as well as to have the rifle stripped and cleaned.

Since then I've removed the righty cheakpiece and shaved wood on the right side to build in "cast" on so the rifle fits me perfectly.

Recently it has seen a stock refinish nad a new pig skin leather pad. The original finish had the tendency to get tacky in the Zambezi Valley's October heat and the leather pad, which was calf's leather in the European tradition, had been cut and gouged by thorns.

I finished my last safari elephant hunting with spare 458wm ammo that was barrowed while there, in the field. I had only four round of my ammo left, a bit fewer than I was comfortable going after elephants with. I was able to return the barrowed ammo without shooting any, but I was plumb out of mine. (Because, in a rush to depart after signing a last minute business deal that almost had me cancel my trip, I erroneously packed an extra box of softs and so left a needed box of solids at home. That and I killed nine elephants on that trip, two more than my most optimistic esimate.)

Being able to scrounge ammo is a real benefit to having a common chambering for at least one of your DG rifles. And if DG is on the agenda, I think it is foolish to take only one DG rifle when you can always take a 375H&H or 9.3 x whatever as a second rifle and have a fine plains game cartridge and an adequate (if light when it comes to eles) backup DG rifle.

I have barrowed 375H&H softs in the field also, and returned them too since I didn't end up needing them. You will use a lot of the light rifle ammo if you are hunting cats, btw, just to keep the bait fresh.

So, with the advent of the 450NE 3 1/4" from Hornaday, I am not more inclined to make the change than I have been. My rifle shoots to regulation with loads that exceed the performance of the 450NE 3 1/4" too. So if I rechambered and tried to avoid a reduction in power and/or a reregulation, I would still be loading the same bullets to the same velocities and the only change would be to the case. I would still be reloading. I would get a rimmed, lower pressure cartridge, but I wouldn't be able to replace my ammo so readily in Africa should the need arise.

FWIW, Federal 458wm ammo shoots slower than my 500gr loads, but "against the rules" crosses at about 25yds, making it a fine substite if required in the field for elephants and still fine for buff at any range I want to shoot them.

Also, fwiw, there is a noticeable difference in the effect of 500gr solids on buff and elephant at 2050fps, my first load that shot to regulation, and my current load, with a different powder, at 2135fps, which shoots better too.

JPK

JPK,

Lot's of good details there, thank you. I am glad you

found that 2135 FPS load. No down side I'll bet, and

better energy numbers going into the head or body of

your elephants! How long are your barrels? Do you typ-

ically take your 375 H&H Belted Mag DR and your .458

DR on each trip to AFRICA so as to have two rifles that

can do the job, and benefitting from the fact that they

are each shooting ammo that is easy to get while in
AFRICA? Thanks again!

Thanks JPK, lots of good info there!

It is always a dream come true, to find a rifle that does everything well, and seems to shoot it's self. I find this is the case more often with double rifles, than with any other platform. Like you, my light rifle is always one that is capable of takeing the DG if anything happens to my big rifle, usually either a 9.3X74R double rifle, or a FN Mauser 375 H&H bolt rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
JPK,

Lot's of good details there, thank you. I am glad you

found that 2135 FPS load. No down side I'll bet, and

better energy numbers going into the head or body of

your elephants! How long are your barrels? Do you typ-

ically take your 375 H&H Belted Mag DR and your .458

DR on each trip to AFRICA so as to have two rifles that

can do the job, and benefitting from the fact that they

are each shooting ammo that is easy to get while in
AFRICA? Thanks again!

Jack, Mac

BTW, the velocity cited is at 10' from the muzzles. A correction of 1fps/1'from muzzles, which seems about right, gives an estimated muzzle velocity of 2145fps for the 500gr Woodleigh solids.

My best load for eles is the 450gr North Forks at 2190fps, 10' from the muzzles or about 2200fps at the muzzles. Much better penetration, no observable loss of impact effect. Too much penetration for buff, if there is such a thing. The cup points would be a better choice if buff was the only DG on the agenda.

Barrel length is the Euro "equivalent" of 26", don't recall the mm's, and the barrels measure slightly more than 26".

I have had my loads pressure tested and they are lower mid level 458wm loads. The 2050fps load probably produced the same or more pressure since it uses a faster powder, but I didn't have that one pressure tested.

I have taken the 458wm Thys DR and a Dakota 375H&H bolt and been very pleased with the combo. The 375H&H has been sighted 2" high at 100 with the scope, shooting Federal's standard velocity 300gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaws. A handload with a 300gr Woodleigh solids shoots to the same POI. The fixed sight is set up for 50yds in case the rifle gets pressed into DG use. I have on occasion wished for a flatter shooting light rifle, but the tradeoff of not having a back up DG rifle isn't acceptible for me, especially as a lefty.

I recently purchased an A&S Farmars 375H&H sidelock DR and I'm working on getting that set up with claw mounts and an S&B 1x4 illuminated reticle and stock mods to suit me as well as a few other mods.

I actually believe a bolt rifle makes more sense as a plains game/back up rifle since it can be carried by a tracker with four in the magazine and an empty chamber. Then, when the rifle is traded for my double for an opportunity at something other than an ele or buff, I've got four rounds ready to go. The trackers each carry some 375H&H so reloads aren't too far away if required and I don't have to carry ammo in two different cartridges.

Mixed ammo is a real concern, I used to carry 458wm softs and solids and once found to my absolute horror that I'd been in amoungst eles with a soft in one barrel, despite what I thought was religious checking of what I was loading and where I was putting each type in my belt. From that day forward, only 458wm solids go into the loops on my belt. I bought an Africase two round slide so I can carry two softs segregated from my solids and on the other side of the belt. And I fear carrying different ammo.

Still, I want to try the 375H&H double, just for kicks.

JPK

Very, very good! I appreciate all the details!

I think you need to get "into it" with the 375

DR with DG just for the sake of doing so, variety

being the spice of life and all. I understand

the 450 grn NF flat bullets at 2200 being the best

penetratrors on elephant heads and bodies. The

design, weight and velocity seem to be #1 as of now.