This is my first post on this forum, if it is not in the right spot I apologize. I had some posts on the Double Rifles Shooters Society detailing my trohbles but it appears that forum is no longer in existence. I post this just as information for anyone that may be looking for help with their Sabatti. I get no deals or benefits from this post.

I know there are people out there that are looking for help with their Sabattis. Many gunsmiths that worked on doubles in the U.S. have retired or are semiretired. It would be nice to see a sticky on forums like this with a list of double rifle gunsmiths.

A few years ago, and against my better judgment, I purchased a Sabatti double rifle. They had just started coming into the country and despite my misgivings I threw my hard earned money at one. Long story short I ended up with a nice looking rifle that couldn't shoot for nothing. I couldn't return it and I couldn't sell it unless I wanted to do so at a loss. Really I didn't want to give it up, it was in 450/400 and had ejectors. After reading countless books on Africa and India this was the caliber I wanted but it was not regulated and it had the ground muzzles. After a few years of looking for someone that would take on the job of regulating my Sabatti I ended up at the Nitro Express forums looking for tips on regulating it myself. I had previously made a double using a shotgun action and Brown's book that came out fair but was really nothing to look at.

While searching the gunsmithing section I came across a post from Aaron Little stating that he would take on a members double rifle build. I knew nothing about Aaron Little but he mentioned he worked with Bailey Bradshaw and I knew a little of his work. Taking a chance I emailed Mr. Little and asked if he would take on regulating my Sabatti. He said he was up for the challenge and after a few emails and a call to Bailey Bradshaw to insure that the man I was talking to was indeed the man he claimed to be I shipped my rifle off to him.

My rifle arrived in Diana, TX on a Thursday and I received an email from Aaron saying he would start working on it Saturday. I honestly did not expect to see my rifle for at least a couple of months but to my surprise I received an email on Sunday saying my rifle was ready for me to test fire. I received it exactly one week after it arrived at Aaron's shop.

Aaron cut back my barrels about 1/2" to get rid of the ground muzzles and recrowned them. He then made a new wedge and properly regulated the rifle. He then polished the barrels but kept them in the white pending my test fire.

It took a couple of weeks to get to the range but when I did was impressed with the results. Before Aaron worked his magic the best my rifle would do was to keep most shots on an 8 1/2" x 11" target at 50 yards but it would not group. After I got my rifle back from Aaron I was getting 2" x 4" composite group at 50 yards fired right, left three rounds each barrel. These groups are with the huge brass bead front sight and express rear that is standard on Sabattis. With a finer sight I could probably shrink the groups some more but I am more than happy with the results, in fact I'm ecstatic.

Aaron Little did a great job on my rifle. If you got saddled with a Sabatti and are looking for help call Aaron! His prices and customer service were great. A search for Bailey Bradshaw's rifle works and you can see some of Aaron's work.

.

xrayoneone, Welcome to AR. That's good to know. Aaron seems to have a great mix of talents. I'm glad of that, as he's working on my Bradshaw 500 NE and 450-400 2 barrel double rifle set :-)

My Sabatti 450 NE is great. I got the right LOP figured out and built a standing shooting bench. I am simply fine tuning loads and sights at this point. I have a well made reliable double built from strong modern steel with a decent walnut stock. However, it is nice to know there is someone who could re-regulate my rifle should I not get the load I want to shoot well.

My muzzles were not ground, and grinding muzzles was a major screw up on Sabattis part. Given I paid half to a third of what most doubles cost, I am more than happy to invest the time to tweak the rifle to suit me. I do that with all my rifles anyway.

Having said that, I did have an bad experience with a Sabatti that some amatuer hack gunsmith worked on, returned to Cabelas, and I bought as a new rifle not knowing of the amatuer gunsmithing. It created a potentially dangerous situation. Cabelas promptly refunded my money. However, I can't blame Sabatti for modifications someone else did to their rifle.

This is good news for folks wanting to improve their Sabatti. The sad story is Sabatti and Cabelas put such a POS on the market to begin with and leave it to the buyers to sort it all out. A better plan would have been to market a well constructed rifle at a higher price and have pleased customers. The Sabatti reputation will never recover.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
This is good news for folks wanting to improve their Sabatti. The sad story is Sabatti and Cabelas put such a POS on the market to begin with and leave it to the buyers to sort it all out. A better plan would have been to market a well constructed rifle at a higher price and have pleased customers. The Sabatti reputation will never recover.
Cal

My take as well!

What some do not realize is, The muzzle was just half the problem with Sabatti! The fact is the rifles were not regulated properly in the first place, and when they didn't shoot properly, the muzzles were ground to try to salvage the rifle instead of hireing a real regulator to do the work properly, instead of using a shotgun regulating JIG.

What Aaron Little did is what Sabatti should have done in the first place, Regulate the rifles before they left the makers shop and none of the bad reputation would have happened!

..................Too late now! As Cal said their reputation will never recover!
........................................................................

quote:

their reputation will never recover!

Assuming they had one to begin with.

I understand Sabatti also soldered the barrels the full length of the rib. No only was proper regulation impossible (thereby the ground muzzles) but now hot blue could be applied saving weeks of rust blue time. These were not accidents but thought out management decisions.

For a ball park figure, I would guess Cabelas bought the Sabatti rifles at about 1/2 of retail, thereby doubling their money and making 100% profit. So Sabatti sold the rifle for about 2500$ and they made a profit on that! A double can't be made for that little money and have the buyer expect quality.
Cabelas is too big to care, Sabatti is too far away to care, and many good folks were stuck with a piece of crap. I'm afraid I don't put Cabelas on a pedestal. Much of what they sell is Chinese-made shit, bought cheap and marked up a great amount. I stopped buying clothing from them as I'm sick of the "Made in xxx" label.
Cal

the price of oats is always cheaper when they have passed through the horse

I bought three Sabattis; all three shot well into 2 inches at 50 yards. No issues whatever. Two 450s and one 500.
Barrels Soldered full length? Of course the ribs are soldered full length. Hot blue can be used any time you use non lead solder. And rust blue does not take weeks.
I say that is not a true rumor.
Hashed over story; Nothing new here; Sabatti haters and Sabatti users.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Nothing new here; Sabatti haters and Sabatti users.

Your mileage may vary but my Sabatti shoots very well. I had the triggers lightened, a decent recoil pad added and put a little weight in the buttstock. I mounted a Burris FastFire red dot on it and with Hornady ammo it shoots into a one ragged hole.

Mike - I agree completely. Did the same to mine excluding the weight addition, it's a 9.3 x 74R so didn't need that. The smith that did my work commented on the action design (to the good) and overall build on my rifle. Before the flaming begins, this guy builds a lot of 505 Gibbs rifles from the ground up and many other fine custom guns and is well known though out the Southwest as top notch.

My rifle is shooting very well now, I keep changing and working loads and different bullets mainly because I like to. It's going to Moz for Buff in September, that load is secured, just playing with different options now.

It is really nice to know that there is a gentleman who has the expertise and willingness to help his fellow shooters and not be biased as to the shooters' weapon of choice. Thanks for the post.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Nothing new here; Sabatti haters and Sabatti users.

Your mileage may vary but my Sabatti shoots very well. I had the triggers lightened, a decent recoil pad added and put a little weight in the buttstock. I mounted a Burris FastFire red dot on it and with Hornady ammo it shoots into a one ragged hole.

Gents:
Forgive me if I offended any of you fine folks. However, I have lost count of the number of Sabatti owners who have contacted me via my website or through my column in the African Hunter magazine to tell me of their tribulations with the the double rifles.
DPCD: A gent in Tenn. who is a well known gun smith bought the inventory of several Cabelas stores. He has disassembled the Sabatti doubles, refurbished them, and will sell them. The info about the solder and bluing I got from him. He is a fine gent, known to most in the double rifle world, and his word is good as gold. He can (and has) built doubles up to 4-bore from scratch.

I don't consider myself a hater of Sabatti doubles, but the evidence is there from feed back I receive. I'm glad for those of you whose rifles work well and there seems to be paths to follow for those whose rifles don't measure up to standards.
Cheers, mates.
cal

I think what gets lost in all this is on the Sabatti Big Five Classic Safari Models, is the action is well made and locks up tight, strong modern steel is used, and the wood is decent enough walnut. It is a Plain Jane double rifle for sure, but the basic components are well made and strong.

If you get one that was regulated properly you have a real bargain in a DR. If you get one that had muzzles ground it needs refurbished and that is a foul, though buying one and having it re-regulated is still less than you'd pay for most other doubles.

The biggest issue I have had with my 450 is getting the LOP correct and shooting it from proper standing bench. Even with that, the original factory front sight was too short resulting in a high POI at 50 yds. I am not personally put off by that because just as I don't expect an off-the-shelf M-70 to be ready to go, I didn't expect a budget grade double to be ready to go. I fully expected to have to fuss with sights and loads until I got it where I wanted it. If I can't get the load I want to shoot how I want, I may well have it re-regulated to my selected load.

Now If I were spending $10-$15K on a Searcy, Krieghoff, Merkel, Blaser, Verney Carron, etc; I would very much expect it to fit me perfectly and shoot to the sights at 50 yds with the load/ammo given to my by the builder. I would not tolerate any deviation from that. However, when I spent $4250 on a 450 NE, I don't mind having to do the final sorting out.

I DO expect any rifle I buy to be accurate enough to take hunting for its intended range of species.

This "it's a piece of shit, but at least it's a cheap piece of shit so it's okay..." is a symptom of what is wrong with the firearms industry, AND with this country.

I can just see all of you sabatti/cabela's owners going to a DR shoot somewhere and telling the other shooters, "Hey, it was cheap...".

DR's especially should evoke some sense of pride when you open the case.

It is good Aaron can regulate them to a decent standard.

It is bad that you who own them are okay with that needing to be done.

enjoy,

Rich

My 450 has shot 2" groups at 50 yds from day one with factory ammo. It certainly meets the criteria of being ready to hunt with, but I am just not satisfied with anything out-of-the box, whether it be a $60,000 pickup truck, a $3500 trumpet, or a rifle. I would hope more expensive DRs are ready to go out of the box, but I have heard enough horror stories to wonder about that.

I do get it that the improper regulation was a stupid thing to do, and Sabatti deserves criticism for that. However, MOST Sabattis are fine yet there are a few people who have to condemn them all. There are crappy pre 64 M-70s out there but the entire lot of pre 64s isn't considered crap.

I think the main reason so many hate Sabattis is Sabatti made a DR available to another class of hunter. It's funny, because 20 or so years ago when Krieghoff and Merkel came out with their $8-12k doubles they were considered cheap low end rifles that needed of work. The REAL DRs were old ones you found at wealthy peoples estate sales or you bought one from H&H or Rigby for a small fortune.

Then, the owners of the high end doubles looked down on Krieghoffs and Merkels, probably mostly because they didn't like the new class of hunters who could now afford doubles. It seems history is repeating itself. It is rather amusing........

quote:

Originally posted by afp:


I think the main reason so many hate Sabattis is Sabatti made a DR available to another class of hunter.

That's not it, but you're sort of on the right track. The reason we dislike Sabattis is that Sabatti knew exactly what it was doing, in that the company DID go after a different segment of the hunting community, but in doing so, knew this new group of double rifle owners, for the very large part, didn't have a strong background in what to look for with a DR. So they attracted new DR shooters with pretty (if you can, call it that) laser engraving to put some bling on the gun, and totally slid the regulation issue by the new and unsuspecting double customer, knowing most would never take it anywhere but the local range to impress the AR-15 crowd that forms a semi-circle around you when you pull out the "elephant gun". When a few stood up and said, "Hey, these guns don't shoot very well, but they sure are pretty", they attempted to put ONE MORE over on the unsuspecting new DR customer by taking a dremel tool to the barrels.

Look, issues can arise on any class of DR. My VC needed regulation work. I have a friend with a newly constructed H&H Royal DR that had to go back for regulation work as well. But in both of those situations, the need for work was an anomaly and once brought to the company's attention, was handled promptly, properly, and under warranty. Sabatti broke out the dremel to fix an issue they knew about and were called on when a few knowledgable DR owners bought these guns and realized there was a problem!

For me, the issue is with the company taking advantage of the new group of DR hunters, not that a new class of DR hunter has been formed. For that matter, the more the merrier. It's plain as day that the company knowingly took advantage of a bunch of guys who didn't know what to look for in buying a double rifle. THAT's what I dislike them over, ... the fact they are dishonest.

Xrayoneone, thanks for the very informative post. Good to have a reliable name on file if I ever need help.

Todd,

I guess that makes sense, though I am not sure the laser engraving had anything to do with it. What drew me was a solid, no frills rifle at a price that I as willing to pay. It's too bad some were not regulated properly as it seems most are fine.

I just suspect there is nothing Sabatti can do to repair it's reputation with some people. I know from the time I shot a Krieghoff in 470 about 18 years ago I decided it was a piece of junk. The trigger pull was way too heavy and the rifle slapped me in the face. My Sabatti is way better than that particular Krieghoff.

I am with afp on this one. I had the same type of issue with Kimber. Both my CDP PRO .45 and my Solo Carry 9mm are very expensive unreliable pieces of crap. They were advertised as "out of the custom shop". On the other hand my Glock 21 and 19 at $450 each have never failed to fire. My Sabatti 450 works great, and I bought it at a price I could justify for my limited needs. Like the Kimber owners, most are quite happy with their purchase but it sure sucks to get stung by a bad one.

I have never bought in to the Sabatti is crap thing. My Sabatti fits better than my Merkel, shoots as good, wood looks better, and is solid built. Yes, ill advised regulation issues, but if you avoided that, you've got a good solid working double that most can afford. It (450 NE) functions and shoots as good as my 450/400 Chapuis and my 470 Merkel.
However, my other Chapuis, according to some definitions here, is a cheap piece of shit. That 9.3 took me 4 years to get regulated with a scope. I tried 2 different scope mounts, 3 different scopes, 7 or 8 different factory loads, and a batch of regulating hand loads to even get close and it still crossed. So, I did
what I should have done 4 years ago, sent it to JJ and he regulated it with the scope and my factory loads of choice. Got it back last week ($838 later). Now it shoots tennis ball groups at a 100yds. None of this has made me a devout DR lover and none of my DRs will even come close to my bolt action rifles accuracy. Nevertheless, I own 6 doubles in all and do have fun with them.

BEGNO,

Bravo! You are a true riflecrank.
That is a lot better than being a "gunwhore" like Ray claims to be.

Xrayone: Thanks for the info. I'm new to the double rifle game. I own a Baikal 45/70, that's taken allot of work to regulate. I don't think I'm finished either. Someone said Cabella's quit importing the Big 5 Doubles. I emailed Sabatti about this last week and have no answer yet.

quote:

The Sabatti reputation will never recover

Many on here will see to that. The newer rifles seem to be much better. I love mine it shoots great and for $3200 for a 470 I love it even more.

Thanks for the information xrayoneone.

quote:

Originally posted by davesmyrnaga:
Xrayone: Thanks for the info. I'm new to the double rifle game. I own a Baikal 45/70, that's taken allot of work to regulate. I don't think I'm finished either. Someone said Cabella's quit importing the Big 5 Doubles. I emailed Sabatti about this last week and have no answer yet.

I don't think you'll ever hear from Sabatti. I emailed them a number of times over the years and never got a reply.

I think the Sabattis I've seen are well made. Of course if they can't shoot they become a problem. I'm just happy to have a double in the caliber I want that shoots. It should have been regulated from the first but Aaron saw to that.

Aaron and Bailey do nice work. We need young gunsmiths who are familiar with doubles to replace those retiring. After WW1, England lost so many men in the war, there was a void of skilled workers for years.

As a collector of English doubles, I shy away from from the German, Austrian and just about any other makers as they are not in my wheelhouse. I have always thought that the Sabatti rifle itself was a fantastic value. It is just too bad the regulation was so bad. One of the better gunsmiths in the country has inspected and fixed several of these. His opinion is that these rifles, sans the regulation and trigger, are well built. In fact I wish I was able to purchase one when they went on sale for about $3,500. I put that offer out there for any dissatisfied Sabatti owners...

I bought a Sabatti 92 ejector in 500 NE. It did not have ground muzzles. Unfortunately both barrels shot 7 inches apart at 25 yards. I shot the ammo recommended the Hornady 570 DGX and I had a friend shoot is also.

Cabelas took it back after I showed them the targets, without any resistance. Like they were used to the problem.

The fact is, I really liked the gun. This all took place about a year ago. I think if I had it still, I would of sent it in to see if a pro could of re-regulated it to shoot correctly.

It was my first double rifle and the experience still smarts. I am looking at some Merkels right now but I am still a little "gun shy" though I really want a nice shooting double rifle.

Too bad mine did not shoot.

If I may.......looks like a heck of a deal to me!

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1078981/m/2001027602

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
This is good news for folks wanting to improve their Sabatti. The sad story is Sabatti and Cabelas put such a POS on the market to begin with and leave it to the buyers to sort it all out. A better plan would have been to market a well constructed rifle at a higher price and have pleased customers. The Sabatti reputation will never recover.
Cal

My take as well!

What some do not realize is, The muzzle was just half the problem with Sabatti! The fact is the rifles were not regulated properly in the first place, and when they didn't shoot properly, the muzzles were ground to try to salvage the rifle instead of hireing a real regulator to do the work properly, instead of using a shotgun regulating JIG.

What Aaron Little did is what Sabatti should have done in the first place, Regulate the rifles before they left the makers shop and none of the bad reputation would have happened!

..................Too late now! As Cal said their reputation will never recover!
........................................................................

Mac did you actually say REUGALATION JIG?
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
This is good news for folks wanting to improve their Sabatti. The sad story is Sabatti and Cabelas put such a POS on the market to begin with and leave it to the buyers to sort it all out. A better plan would have been to market a well constructed rifle at a higher price and have pleased customers. The Sabatti reputation will never recover.
Cal

My take as well!

What some do not realize is, The muzzle was just half the problem with Sabatti! The fact is the rifles were not regulated properly in the first place, and when they didn't shoot properly, the muzzles were ground to try to salvage the rifle instead of hireing a real regulator to do the work properly, instead of using a shotgun regulating JIG.

What Aaron Little did is what Sabatti should have done in the first place, Regulate the rifles before they left the makers shop and none of the bad reputation would have happened!

..................Too late now! As Cal said their reputation will never recover!
........................................................................

Mac did you actually say REUGALATION JIG?
Bill

NO! I said a SHOTGUN REGULATION JIG! Shotgun JIGs are a PRE-set jig that simply holds all shotgun barrels, of the same gauge, the same way for every shotgun made by that maker for solder up. This works with shotguns because the 30 inch pattern simply has to print more or less over the other barrel's pattern at 35 yards. IMO, that was what Sabitti used to regulate the rifles as well, and they did print both barrels somewhere within a 30 inch circle. AGAIN that is what I call a JIG, but others may call it anything they like but if they want a double rifle that regulates properly, there are no short cuts!

.....................................................................

Aaron seems to be building a nice reputation as a gunsmith in a nitch market. I bid him well.

Aaron must be a pretty good double rifle smith, because he works with Bailey Bradshaw, regulating some of his rifles. It has been reported lately that he has re-regulated, or should I say just REGULATED, a few of the Sabattis to shoot very well. Even those that had to have the dremmeled barrels cut back to good rifling and regulating to shoot properly, saving them for their owners.

I wouldn't hesitate sending him a Sabatti double rifle for re-regulation rather than just hang it on the wall.

......................................................................

So what's Aarons price for reregulating of Sabattis?

When I talked to him last year, he said $500 plus the rebluing, which usually wound up around $800
total. I don't know if those charges are still in effect. He also needs 60 rounds of ammo. I am working up my desired load as we speak so he can regulate my Sabatti 450 NE. The cool thing with the re-regulation is you can pick whatever load you want--as long as it is a safe and common sense load. However, using factory ammo might make resale easier.

Boy I like this thread! Like mentioned above my regulation cost is $500 in most circumstances, the only thing that would change that cost is in dealing with anything over .500NE. I do slow rust bluing only starting at $250. I'll also regulate other makes.

Mac, I am actually no longer with Bailey Bradshaw although we still keep a close friendship and business partnership. I operate in my own shop located just northwest of ft. Worth. Currently my work load consists of a few shotgun to rifle conversions, regulation, bolt gun builds, and stocking. I will be also introducing or at least showing progress of a single shot break action line as well as a droplock double rifle offering this year.

Thanks,
Aaron

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
Boy I like this thread! Like mentioned above my regulation cost is $500 in most circumstances, the only thing that would change that cost is in dealing with anything over .500NE. I do slow rust bluing only starting at $250. I'll also regulate other makes.

Mac, I am actually no longer with Bailey Bradshaw although we still keep a close friendship and business partnership. I operate in my own shop located just northwest of ft. Worth. Currently my work load consists of a few shotgun to rifle conversions, regulation, bolt gun builds, stocking, and I will be introducing or at least showing progress of a single shot break action line as well as a droplock double rifle offering.

Thanks,
Aaron

Thanks Aaron, I sent you a PM about a double I have!

.....................................................................

From what I've seen, Sabatti builds a better double than Chapuis.


Biggest thing they did wrong was price them reasonably.