Who has the Webley & Scott records today?

I am asking because I want to know manufacture year and if possible who was the first owner of my W&S .450/.400 3 1/4" N.E.

The present W&S company said that Gallyon and Sons Ltd had the records, but I got this rather dissapointing answer from them;

'-Thank you for your e.mail regarding your Webley & Scott Rifle. Although we do possess records for Webley shotguns I am afraid that we do not have any records for rifles. I am sorry that we cannot help you in this case.'

If you want something to be done -you bloody well better do it your self

A search after 'Webley and Scott records' at Internet gave me this link;

http://www.armsresearch.co.uk/Webley%20and%20Scott%20Re...cott%20Research.html

So, now dear AR fellows, we probably can get access to both Webley and Scott as well as Wilkinson firearms records!

Greetings: I have some antique W&S guns-cape guns etc- and I believe all the antique records were destroyed in a fire. Cheers, Luke

I got this answer today;


Thank you for your message. W&S rifles have not been entered onto our data-base. We might be able to find a copy of the original sales invoice from the Day Books. We will check and let you know what we find.



I really hope that they will find something about my W&S!

Some one sent me this:

Records for Webley and Scott: tell him to check with
Holland's, they bought them, or pat whatley who was
their last managing director.

Let me know how you make out. I also possess a Webley & Scott double in 450/400 x 3.25 inch.

Rigbyman

Please post pictures that sounds like a great rifle I would love to see it.



cheers,

André

Hi Jack and rigbyman,

I got this quite dissapointing answer today;

'-No luck I’m afraid, it must be in one of the missing books. The best I can say is it was sold between 1923 and 1930, probable nearer the earlier date. You have not been charged for this service.'

So what to do now?
Check with Holland and try to find Mr Pat Whatley!


My W&S as seen before;

I can't post pictures at the time due to not having a digital camera. My Webley & Scott double is similar to the one in the posted picture. My serial number is 11533 and based upon limited research, I believe the date of manufacture is somewhere between 1905 and 1910. It is in good condition and is with the oak and leather case with all the accessories.

rigbyman,
Your neighbour might have a digital camera?!


My W&S serial number is 136XX

Rigbyman:

Webley & Scott rifle No. 11533 is from 1907.

Husky:

Pretty easy to come closer than 1923-1930. My table shows No. 136XX to be from 1923 or 1924. A quick look at the flats will disclose if it was proved before 1925. If the chamber length was stamped on the flats by the proof house (3.25"), it was proved AFTER 1925. If there is no chamber length mark, it was proved before 1925. Your gun shouldn't have that mark.

Thanks for the information.

rigbyman

Gentlemen:

I too own a Webley and Scott 450/400 3.25". I wonder what are your bore dimensions. Mine slugged at .411.

Also, do you reload for your rifles?

Many thanks...

Hi,

Full serial number on mine is 13605.
There are no chamber length stamping on the flats, so it must been made before 1925 and maybe closer to 1915 than 1925???

My rifle is slugged at .408, coincedently the same dimension as the original KYNOCH Soft Point ammunition that still is avaible here at a gun store.

The ammunition is made in 9 December 1966 (code: 9 S O), perhaps the last lot? Great for wildboar and no mis fires!

With help from Don Heath at Norma, I have developed a load that works out quite fine in my rifle:

Bullet: Woodleigh 408" 400gr SN
Case: Hornady
Powder: Norma 204, Load 83 grain
Primer: Federal 215

We laborated with loads from 81 - 84 grain, but 83 grain of Norma 204 worked out best.

Shoot from a standing position with rest on the bonnet of my bakkie at 50 meters, the grouping with 83 grain of Norma 204 was 1/2" with a bullet from each barrel. The grouping was later confirmed when I hit a beer can at 100 meters with a right and a left from standing position.

I am quite happy with my old W&S -a working rifle indeed.



I have asked in another message about ANY information about when did W&S stop making double rifles and it what calibers was the last rifles delivered in?

Would be most thankful for any information.

Husky

Some rough numbers from QL suggests that load is giving you ~2220 fps at mild pressure. If this is close to what you are actually getting it looks like your 450/400 3"1/4 is regulated for the full charge and not the light tropical load. Nice find. I bet it's fun to shoot.

Rhodes

Hi Rhodes,

It is regulated with the full load "CORDITE 60 - 400 Max".

Can´t ask for more!

Husky:

My W&S 450/400 3/25" is #13607. So pretty close there, who has the Webley & Scott records?

Seem to remember they were purchased by Holland & Holland, but my memory sometimes fails me.

I purchased the rifle from George Caswell's shop about 5 years ago and they loaded some ammunition for me:

.411
400 Grain Woodleigh SP
Federal 215 Primer
HDS cases
68 Grains of Reloader 15
1.5 grains of poly fiber
2100 FPS

The rifle shoots about 4" apart at 50 yards- so I'm getting prepared to reload myself.

Interesting that our rifles, which are very close together serial number wise, have different bore sizes...

I suspect if I increase the charge of Reloader 15 to 69 or perhaps 70 grains the rifle will shoot a bit better.

I hope to achieve your results which were very impressive!

Hi Dahav,

What a co incidente!
Wonders who got rifle #13606?
You must send some pictures of your rifle!

According to 3rd edition of Graeme Wright´s "Shooting the British Double Rifle"
a load of 83 grains of IMR 4831 will give a velocity of 2070 fps at 10.9 tpsi
(original 60 grains Cordite load was 16.5 - 17.5 tpsi), so you would have some possibilities to laborate a nice load for #13607

IMR 4831 is very close to Norma N 204 -just a little bit slower.


Concerning the barell dimensions, well what can one say!

Husky:

An interesting side note- I had my W&S in to replace the sight bead and while in the shop had the bores slugged. They came up .4064 and .4068.

When I purchased the rifle from Champlin Arms about five years ago, George Caswell sent me some loaded ammunition as described above .411. I assumed he had slugged the bores at .411.

Fortunately, I only fired the rifle 4 times with George's .411 reloads. No damage done according to my gunsmith, thank goodness.

Now a new problem, what to do about bullets?

I have emailed Woodleigh asking them if the .408s will be ok or perhaps they can make some .406
bullets for me. Other options do exist such as swaging .408 bullets down, etc.

Did you use filler with your Norma 204 loads?

Still trying to figure out how to send photos, but our rifles are identical, except mine has a recoil pad.

Thanks for your help...

I find it interesting that from the slug of a bore they can read it to .0000 of a difference.

You lot worry about bullets too much.

Use the .408 bullets in your gun.


Before some US person asked for .408 bullets, everyone was using .410 / .411 and you didn't see any damage, problems or issues then.