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First double for a young'un...
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Picture of hhmag
posted 25 October 2008 04:34
Hey all...been a while. My wife is finally prego after years of trying and, oddly enough, I find my thoughts gravitating towards my son's collection of guns before he's even born.

I'm having thoughts about a first double and wanted to get a few thoughts. I started shooting at 6, so I figure if he's anything like me, I have a few years to get cracking. Just enough time to build a nice custom and engrave it just so as a nice weekend project gun, and the end result will be setting my son on the proper path!

Here's the thoughts I've been tossing around...and yes, I can build doubles (I gots the skilz). The first thought was to find a nice little .410 and build a set of .357 barrels for it. How cool would it be to be able to plink with .38 specials in a double. Personally I love a .410 for snipe and woodcock as well, so the extra (original) barrels would be a boon.

My other thought would be maybe a nice little 28ga. and build a set of barrels in Rook or Cadet. A new stock every few years and it would follow him throughout his lifetime.

Any other thoughts?


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Rob Martin

 
Posts: 395 | Location: Florida's Fabulous East Coast | Registered: 26 February 2004Reply With Quote
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posted 25 October 2008 20:15Hide Post
Never did like the .410 for kids. 28g is much better IMO. Have seen a double in .22 Savage(Krieghoff, Heym and Chapuis all offer 5.6x 52R which is exactly the same thing! And it is good enough for small (roe) deer, duiker, baboons, jackal....VCR's...
 
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posted 26 October 2008 06:13Hide Post
A .410 .45 long colt double sounds like a very nice toy.
 
Posts: 10640 | Location: Houston, Texas | Registered: 26 December 2005Reply With Quote
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posted 26 October 2008 07:03Hide Post
I do not like a .410 for a kids first wing shooting shotgun either.

However, when I start a kid out hunting I like to have them use a .410 for small game and pests like a rifle. With its low recoil and shot pattern they can make kills pretty quick.

A double with a 2 barrel set, one in .410 and another in 357 mag woiuld be just about perfect.

I would have him/her shoot the .410 on game and practice rifle shooting with 38 wadcutters, eventually using the 38/357 on small game and pests.


Actually with the right load and bullet the 357 Mag would work for deer as well.

When he/she is ready for wing shooting I woudl go to the 20 guage. Shells for the 28ga are a lot more expensive than field 20 ga and even field 12 ga loads.


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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posted 26 October 2008 21:12Hide Post
How about just cutting through the chase and adopt me!!..450/400 would be perfect starter.. Dad.....


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Posts: 1112 | Location: Southern California USA | Registered: 21 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of hhmag
posted 27 October 2008 01:29Hide Post
.22 Savage...didn't think about that one. I like it.

A guy at the range today threw .30 carbine ino the mix as well. Other than the .38/.357 that would likely be the easiest to find in a pinch.

I had thought of doing the .410/.45Colt, but I want it to be a real rifle (with rifled barrels) with a set of shotgun barrels as well.

Call me silly, but I have this image in my head of pitching up at the range with my .475 No.2 and 20ga barrels for a day of shooting and having my young son next to me with his own double.

Gentlemen, thanks for the input!


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Rob Martin

 
Posts: 395 | Location: Florida's Fabulous East Coast | Registered: 26 February 2004Reply With Quote
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posted 27 October 2008 08:56Hide Post
Depends on how "light" a cartridge you are after to shoot at what and at what age. If I had the "skilz" as you so aptly put it, I might consider 30/30. It's a rimmed cartridge, commonly available, and pretty shooter kindly. Useful on deer size game and smaller. Hate to think of building something so involved for a short time period as a small pistol cartridge may keep him entertained, but I also want you to adopt me. If you do build a little one, it could be a family heirloom for generations.
 
Posts: 1981 | Location: South Dakota | Registered: 22 August 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of Wink
posted 27 October 2008 21:53Hide Post
Kids grow fast. What's perfect at one age is too small in only a couple of years. If I were in the same position I would look for a small frame 20 gauge and use pistol or rifle caliber inserts which replace the shot shell, rather than a second set of barrels. The pistol caliber inserts come in a variety of calibers, such as 45 Long Colt, as do the rifle caliber inserts. I notice that they are frequently made in Germany, at least that's what I see here in France, but it seems they are made in the USA as well:

http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm


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Posts: 7046 | Location: Rambouillet, France | Registered: 25 June 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of hhmag
posted 28 October 2008 00:16Hide Post
I had actually come to the 30/30 conclusion at some time last night. For some reason it had slipped my mind. A friend asked me to roll a reduced load for his daugher's first deer hunt a few years back and I still have the dies and 80 pieces of brass with a bunch of 110gr RN pills. That issue solved.

I still like the 28ga option. I have a 28ga Parker Bros that is magic on early doves, and still leaves enough meat to make a few pies with a day's bag.

Marty's right as well. One of the reasons behind this piece is as an heirloom. As soon as he is old enough, he will be accompanying my wife and I to Africa, and I want that to be done right as well.

And even if I gave in and adopted a few more "kids" there will be ABSOLUTELY NO BREAST FEEDING!


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Rob Martin

 
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Picture of MacD37
posted 28 October 2008 02:57Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Marty:
Depends on how "light" a cartridge you are after to shoot at what and at what age. If I had the "skilz" as you so aptly put it, I might consider 30/30. It's a rimmed cartridge, commonly available, and pretty shooter kindly. Useful on deer size game and smaller. Hate to think of building something so involved for a short time period as a small pistol cartridge may keep him entertained, but I also want you to adopt me. If you do build a little one, it could be a family heirloom for generations.


I agree with Marty on this one! Take a little 28 ga shotgun, and build a set of 30-30 barrels for it, and he can use the rifle the rest of his life. With good irons sights and some QD scope rings and bases for a very light low mounted scope in the 2-7X32mm range with a German no 4 reticle, and you have a little shooting system that will take care of 90% of his shooting till hes in his teens, and after!

IMO, it would be a shame to do all that work to build a novelty, when a good rifle , with a set of shotgun barrels can be made with no more effort! This will place this kid in the Membership of the DRSS, and I will personally endorce him (along with his father) for a place at one of our Texas Wild boar hunts, with his little 30-30 double rifle!

...............Go get-up young man! beer


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

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Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
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posted 28 October 2008 03:24Hide Post
I would second the .30-30 barrel set. You can down load it when he is small and as he grows you can start loading it up. A down loaded .30-30 in a double would not have any recoil at all.



 
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posted 29 October 2008 09:04Hide Post
I AGREE WITH WINK ON THE 20 GA.
GIVE THE KID A CHANCE AT HITTING SOMETHING .
IT'S BETTER THAN A 410
get a bss and make another monoblock or two for the double rifles. that gun will handle your pop gun starter cartridges and can easily take a 375 and probably that mild recoiling 450-400 jeffery that has regained popularity with the recoil sensitive.
 
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Picture of ChrisPer
posted 29 October 2008 11:27Hide Post
Myself, I feel you are missing something.

I have four kids, my daughter took her rabbit spotlighting at eight years old. I found that before they are about ten, ordinary buttstocks and rifle weight is too big for them. A 30-30 is a big boomer - well it was for me at 15, anyway.

I suggest the kid will enjoy shooting more with a .22 Hornet or even .22LR and an extra short buttstock, which you can grow with spacers as the kid grows until the 'real' butt can be used. The barrels should be short so the weight stays back in the hands. Kids also love scopes, but it can be a pest getting their posture and the length of pull right for a scope. I use a 2.5x on my 9422, and its really their favourite.

Keep the 30-30 barrel set for later. dancing
 
Posts: 15 | Location: Australia | Registered: 08 September 2008Reply With Quote
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Picture of hhmag
posted 29 October 2008 16:59Hide Post
I'm not silly, this won't be built with a first rifle in mind. He'll start off as I did, with my grandpa's .22 Winchester then probably to my K Hornet. both are stocked for kids around 4' tall.

I'm figuring this one will be an 8-9y.o. rifle and shotgun-hopefully he'll still want to pal around with his old man by then!

By way of comparison, I started with my grandfather's .22 when I was 6, he got me the 22 K Hornet for my first "hunt" when I was 7 for rabbit-which I had to help skin and eat (cried like a little girl-but learned the lesson well), then deer with a .30-06 (125gr light load) at 9. Wanna imagine something funny, think of a 9 year old with a Garand balanced on a hay bale-different times!

I hope I'm not as gruff with my son as my grandpa was with me, but I also hope I can give my son half of what I was given.

I remember the 110gr load I did for my buddy's daughter-clocked around 1650fps or so. Figure in a 6-7 pound double that should be just right for an 8y.o. (it was for a 9y.o. girl with a Marlin). I figured on a laminated stock until he is done abusing it as a child, and keep the good wood long for me Wink


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Rob Martin

 
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Picture of MacD37
posted 29 October 2008 19:04Hide Post
hhmag, You've got the right idea! I too started with a .22 lr full size Mod 67 Winchester, and my grandfather's 12 ga single barrel Stevens shotgun at age six yrs old! I only weighed about 65 lbs at six, and I killed my first deer at age seven, with that same .22 lr single shot, with a head shot. That was the first of many deer we consumed. As you say "DIFFERENT TIMES"! This was durring WW II, when five families moved on my Grand father's ranch while my dad, and uncles were fighting the Germans in Europe. I killed a deer per week avrg for the whole war to feed all those people. Food rationing made meat out of reach, because all cattle, and hogs belonged to the war effort. I shot a lot of doves, quail,ducks,, and wild turkeys with that old 12 ga Stevens.

People today seem to think a little recoil will kill their kids, it won't. Kids can handle a lot more than their parents think! All four of my kids were shooting 30 cal rifles by age 7, and they are all crack shots today. The youngest is 45, and the oldest is 53 yrs old.


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
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posted 31 October 2008 00:38Hide Post
Hmm If you are going bigger. My first centre fire rifle was a 7x57 and 7x57R is a common enough cal for european double rifles.

personally would go for a chapuis or krieghoff in .308 with 28g shotgun barrels. the extra weight in a double makes it much more manageable than a bolt gun of the same cal- especially if it is fitted. Guided a small 9 year old onto elephant who was using a 9,3x74R which he managed remarably well.

NB, any reputable maker will regulate the rifle with the make of ammo and bullet specified. A .308 set up for 150 grn or 7x57R for 140grn will serve him well all his life
 
Posts: 3026 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of hhmag
posted 31 October 2008 02:18Hide Post
I have a nice little Holland in 7x57R, but while the recoil might be okay for a youngster, the 18 grand for the rifle will have ME flinching when he shoots!

I have built 4 doubles now on shotgun actions, three on BSS actions and one on a Huglu/CZ (nice little 9.3x74R). I know I can do it, and I have the desire as well.

The idea behind this rifle is to buy a nice shotgun for a decent price and practice my skills at custom 'smithing. I do nice wood, I'm a fair engraver and my metal finishing skills are above average. If I take the next six or seven years working a weekend or two at a time, I want to see if I can build a rifle to equal the old Brit guns in my safe. I have really wanted to go all out for some time, and my son is a damned good reason. If I do this right, hopefully someone will be telling stories of their first hunt with this gun for generations to come.

I was reminded of my mortality several times over the last few years, so I guess this will be a bit of a legacy for me. I only hope to live long enough to finish it and see it used (and hopefully a little longer).


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Rob Martin

 
Posts: 395 | Location: Florida's Fabulous East Coast | Registered: 26 February 2004Reply With Quote
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posted 31 October 2008 04:42Hide Post
i have a buddy with a double in 22 hornet. think it austrian or something. pretty old. have not shot it, but it looks like fun.
 
Posts: 831 | Location: Virginia | Registered: 28 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of MacD37
posted 31 October 2008 04:56Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ganyana:
Hmm If you are going bigger. My first centre fire rifle was a 7x57 and 7x57R is a common enough cal for european double rifles.

personally would go for a chapuis or krieghoff in .308 with 28g shotgun barrels. the extra weight in a double makes it much more manageable than a bolt gun of the same cal- especially if it is fitted. Guided a small 9 year old onto elephant who was using a 9,3x74R which he managed remarably well.

NB, any reputable maker will regulate the rifle with the make of ammo and bullet specified. A .308 set up for 150 grn or 7x57R for 140grn will serve him well all his life


Ganyana, I agree completely on the 7X57R, for you or I, but this is to be made for an American boy! The 30-30 "IS" America! There is no question that the 7X57R is a more versatile cartridge for Africa, and Europe, but the double rifle regulated for 30-30, 150 gr Factory ammo, is an historic Whitetail cartridge that almost every American boy takes his first deer with, and the factory ammo can be found in any country general store, sporting goods store, or even some grocery stores in the USA, Canada, or Mexico. The boy simply has to stop off at a country store on his way to hunt deer, and pick up a $10 box of twenty rounds of ammo.

If he has to hand load all his ammo for the 7X57R, he will be lucky to find the brass, and without ordering it, and you can forget finding factory ammo in a store in most cities in the USA, where this kid will shoot 99% of the rounds that exit the muzzles of that little double rifle! A light well made, and finished 30-30 double rifle is something every double rifle owner in the USA would love to have in their collection. thumb


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
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posted 31 October 2008 11:14Hide Post
Mac - point taken. .303 doyubles were popular for the same reason when my dad and even older brothers were kids.

If you are building the rifle yourself, you can regulate it for what you want and cut the chamber accordngly! Don't know about the 30-30 but it is a daft throat dimension that puts me off the 7x64/7x65R, and the same could be said for the .303
 
Posts: 3026 | Location: Zimbabwe | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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posted 02 November 2008 11:08Hide Post
I'd suggest a 28ga as well -- 20 ga, IMO was a bit much for me, when I started.

I spent most of my boyhood carrying a 22 shooting squirrels/rabbits, etc, but for a double, I think a 357 might be ideal. In the heavier loads, it will come close to equaling the 30-30, and you can go buy low power loads at just about any Wal-Mart.


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