Up for sale at Widforss auction 6 May is in my opinion the finest double rifle ever;
A Charles Lancaster sidelock 450/400 3 1/4" Oval bore. Must be one of the last Oval bores made.

Husky:

Pretty rifle. I found the auction site, but wasn't able to find any details ...and of course, what was there wasn't in English. Do you know what the serial number of this gun is?

Although it's possible that Lancaster finished this gun, I'm quite certain that it was built for them by Webley & Scott. It's Webley's W & R Model. www.westleyrichards.com also has a Webley W & R Model for sale, in caliber .360 No. 2, but built for Joseph Lang. It has both Lang's and Webley's serial numbers on it, both correct for approx. 1906. Lang was owned and operated by the Webley brothers at that time. Likewise, Webley built quite a few double rifles for Lancaster during this period.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

What a cutey! It doesn't look like it weighs 10 lbs.

SEXY.....

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Husky:

Pretty rifle. I found the auction site, but wasn't able to find any details ...and of course, what was there wasn't in English. Do you know what the serial number of this gun is?

Although it's possible that Lancaster finished this gun, I'm quite certain that it was built for them by Webley & Scott. It's Webley's W & R Model. www.westleyrichards.com also has a Webley W & R Model for sale, in caliber .360 No. 2, but built for Joseph Lang. It has both Lang's and Webley's serial numbers on it, both correct for approx. 1906. Lang was owned and operated by the Webley brothers at that time. Likewise, Webley built quite a few double rifles for Lancaster during this period.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Serial number is; 13034

Men Husky seriöst, du kommer att driva upp priserna på det där sättet..

Skämt åsido amrisarna köper upp våra äldre kvalitetsvapen billigt och helt enkelt damsuger marknaden.

Det kommer inom 5-10 år inte finnas många M98 eller M96 or kvar.

Det samma gäller med våra sista vackra Ds som vi haft i landet, jag ser den hellre i dina händer än i utlandet.

Ps jag hade tänkt buda på den men nu känns det osäkert. Ds

/Christian aka Husqvarna

quote:

Originally posted by Christian N:
Men Husky seriöst, du kommer att driva upp priserna på det där sättet..

Skämt åsido amrisarna köper upp våra äldre kvalitetsvapen billigt och helt enkelt damsuger marknaden.

Det kommer inom 5-10 år inte finnas många M98 eller M96 or kvar.

Det samma gäller med våra sista vackra Ds som vi haft i landet, jag ser den hellre i dina händer än i utlandet.

Ps jag hade tänkt buda på den men nu känns det osäkert. Ds

/Christian aka Husqvarna

Well said sir and precisely correct!

What did he say?

He is slightly pissed about you americans vacuuming the market for classic arms and paying high dollars for them, ie leaves him out of the bidding......

Lower Taxes.. More Funds for the Individual to Indulge..
AK

I think he wants to trade an AR 10 for a K98...or perhaps he is looking for a chainsaw.

quote:

Originally posted by akrange:
Lower Taxes.. More Funds for the Individual to Indulge..
AK

YES.

That is an incredibly nice double in any language. It looks brand new.

and the price is....

"I think he wants to trade an AR 10 for a K98...or perhaps he is looking for a chainsaw."

Damn! Lost some coffee over that one!!!

Sweet rifle at any measure.

I think I just fell in love again!

465H&H

Wow! what a nice rifle. I could live with that one! I am not sure it would fit me from the standpoint that I would haul it off to Africa and put additional wear on it, not a good idea and to put such a fine arm in the care of any airline or 3rd world citizen is plumb scary!!

Does anyone know the date of it? I know Charles Lancaster was a gun maker and retailer, but most of the oval bores were made by him, or so I understand. I recently acquired a rook rifle of his from 1885, but found that it was a Tranter patern only retailed by him. Can not complain, it had been hanging in a farmhouse since the 1930's and it changed hands for $150. Beautiful piece that shoots as well as it looks.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry o'brien:
Does anyone know the date of it? I know Charles Lancaster was a gun maker and retailer, but most of the oval bores were made by him, or so I understand. I recently acquired a rook rifle of his from 1885, but found that it was a Tranter patern only retailed by him. Can not complain, it had been hanging in a farmhouse since the 1930's and it changed hands for $150. Beautiful piece that shoots as well as it looks.

According to published tables for Lancaster, SN 13034 is from 1909. Yes, Lancaster was a true gunmaker but, like almost all of the London gunmakers, he did his share of retailing the work of others as well. Many of his double rifles from the nitro era were bought in from DR specialist trade makers in Birmingham, Webley & Scott perhaps chief among them.

Did Webley build oval bore DRs for Lancaster? YES. Did Webley actually bore the barrels, or did Lancaster? I don't know.

The nearest Webley sourced oval bore Lancaster DR I have in my database is a boxlock (Webley PHV-1 Model) .280 Flanged, Lancaster number 134XX, which bears Webley number 130XX (left side of the fore-end loop), delivered in 1912. Both numbers are correct for their respective makers for 1911-1912. This gun has "C.L" stamped on the bottom of the barrels, and yeah, that's supposed to mean that Charles Lancaster (at least the company) made the barrels. That also may have been window dressing by this time. Either Lancaster bored the blanks and supplied them to Webley to build the gun with, or Webley did it all. There is no question that Webley assembled the barrels and built the gun, as they put their own serial number on the barrels (which is the only place they ever put it on guns they built for others).

Although it's hard to be absolutely certain by photos alone, I'm 98% certain that this .400 is Webley's W & R Model. Webley fits, as there is no question that Lancaster was buying in DRs from Webley during this time, and the Webley's are as distinctive as the W & R is rare. While it's possible that Lancaster finished this gun on a proven barreled action in the white bought in from Webley, it's unlikely, as that practice was the exception to the rule.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Wow Nitro, you certainly know your Lancaster rifles! I was informed by a collector of his pieces that quite a few guns were only retailed by the company, particularly after the turn of the century. The give away with mine was the Birmingham proofs - I was told that Webley was probably the maker of the rifle I acquired. Would proof marks be a reliable guide to the origin of a particular piece? ie. A gun with receiver and barrel proofs from Birmingham indicating a bought in piece, London ones pointing to a piece made by Lancaster?

quote:

Originally posted by jerry o'brien:
Would proof marks be a reliable guide to the origin of a particular piece?

Speaking of pre-war British guns, it depends but, generally no.

As an aid in determining the true origin (London vs Birmingham) of a particular gun, London proof is utterly worthless, as it is just as likely to have been built in Brum as it is London. By the turn of the century, the number of Birmingham makers having their guns proved in London was amazing, especially so with the double rifles. Webley, the largest gunmaker in the UK at that time and a solidly Birmingham operation, is a good example. I have several dozen Webley built double rifles in my database from the 1900 to 1930s period, most built for other gunmakers, and a few retailed by Webley themselves. Not a single one was proved in Brum, not even those that Webley retailed themselves.

quote:

ie. A gun with receiver and barrel proofs from Birmingham indicating a bought in piece, London ones pointing to a piece made by Lancaster?

Generally, if the gun bears Birmingham proof, it was probably made there, but even here you can make a mistake. Periodic feuds with the London Proofmasters caused a few London makers, Lancaster among them, to sometimes send their guns to Brum for proof.

The best way is to learn to identify the specific models and markings of the individual trade makers, but that takes a lot of research and is not always possible.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Worth 25K with Nitro proofs and high teens if BPE. (If everything is correct and is in original condition).

JW

Jupp, that´s right, I was sort of trying to get som order in the ranks over here.

BTW there was nothing about AR10:ns or K98:s or chainsaws in my reply other than the US market has through some "smart" swedish guntraders has wacumed almost all good model 96 Rifles.


In great part one of the problems living in sweden is a 6 gun/rifle limit, one can get permits for additional handguns or sporting guns but for hunting it´s max 6 in all.

Due to this rifles like the R93, Hyem 20, and other switchbarrel rifles are popular, one stock and lock equals one permitt, regardless of number of barrels.

And lastly the Ds in question will yiedl serious money and will most likly go to a rich european or american byer, a thing that I think is sort of sad, there are not enough good guns left over here.


Best regards Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
He is slightly pissed about you americans vacuuming the market for classic arms and paying high dollars for them, ie leaves him out of the bidding......

It does indeed turn out to be a Webley W & R C. Webley number (on the fore-end loop) is 12098. Original 60 Cordite proof. LOP is 13.8", 26" barrels, ejectors, weight is approx. 5 kg (11 lbs, with condolences to Will). Condition is described as mint with perfect bores.

Someone asked about the price. Estimate range including the hammer is $27140-$28023 USD.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Does the fact that the stock is short for a factory rifle change the price any at all?

Nope. It made the high estimate.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Details. Details, please.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Details. Details, please.

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Nope. It made the high estimate.

Did that include that extra trigger?