I have now had a chance to run about 30 rounds through my S2 .470 and I wanted to share some more impressions about the rifle as well as the new Hornaday DGX ammo.

When I picked up the gun a couple of weeks ago, I did not yet have a set of dies so I bought a box of Hornaday DGX ammo because I was anxious to put some rounds through it. The first thing I noted was how good the triggers were. Very crisp with no creep. I would guess around 3.5-4 pounds of pull.

Most of the Hornday ammo was used to shoot jugs but I did try and put a few rounds on paper. My rifle would not give me anything close to regulation with the DGX ammo. In fact, regulation was so bad, I became concerned about the rilfe. However, I loaded up some of my own ammo using the Hornaday cases and things immediately got a lot better. I worked up a load using the Hornaday brass, 88 grains of Reloder 15, five grains of dacron, and a 500 grain Woodleigh. That load runs about 2050 fps in my rifle. Last night, I put that load on paper. Shooting from a Stoney Point tripod at 40 meters four shots went into a two inch group. Two of the shots were literally in the same hole. The rifle is shooting a bit low and to the left so I will need to employ a twelve o'clock hold and I have to adjust the rear sight slighly to the right. The rear sight is adjustable and the rifle is provided with a special small allen wrench to do just that.

One more thought about the Hornaday DGX ammo. I know others may have a different view but I will not use it and I think it is very poorly concieved. First of all, regulation in my gun was awful and it left a considerable amoung of unburnt powder in my barrel. Secondly, while I believe it will expand, it is not going to expand much because of that copper clad steel jacket. Especially in the larger calibers pushing heavy bullets, it is likely to pass clean through whatever you are shooting at. With a herd animal like a buffalo (or a bison) you are likely to shoot through your quarry and perhaps injure one of his companions and, as you know, this could have very serious ramifications for someone in your party or someone else later on. Me, I'm sticking with the Woodleighs softs, plenty lead showing.

I have been using Reloder 15 but I can see how using the filler can become very tedious. I am going to try both IMR and H4831 as well.

In the article that I have by Ross Seyfried, he suggests using 6-7 grains of filler with Reloder 15 in the .470 and .500. Maybe it's the brass or my dies but I found that to be too much filler. I dropped down to five grains and loaded those up but I think four grains of dacron would be about right with the Woodleighs which seat quite deeply in the case when seated at the cannelure.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:


Shooting from a Stoney Point tripod at 40 meters four shots went into a two inch group. Two of the shots were literally in the same hole.

That's great Dave! I've always said double rifles and hand loading is the only way to get the very best from a double rifle.

I'd like to know, were you keeping track of which shot was hitting where , and in what order of fireing? (example: #1 rt, #2 lft, #3 rt, and #4 lft )

I guess what I'm really asking is, in what order, and from which barrel did the two shots come from that ended up in the same hole?

A 4 shot 2" group at 40 mtrs is a damn good load, for any double rifle, depending on which shots hit where.

Mac, since this was the first time with a handload on paper, I wasn't paying to much attention as to which one landed where. The same hole shots were from a left, then a right. I think it was just pure luck. One other left was just below and a right was just below and right I think.

Mac, I was thinking that at 2050 fps this load falls right in the Kynoch window. Kynoch shows their load at 2125 fps but that is from a 31 inch barrel. Would you try and soup this up or leave it as is?

Dave,
What was the temperature when you chronographed
those loads? With my Merkel, I am getting 2125MV with 87gr of RL15, 500gr Woodleigh SP and Kynoch wad---temperature 75-80 degees. At 65-70 degrees it runs about 2080.

I tried the Hornady DGX and they shot identical to my handloads. I have been shooting clay targets on the 50yd and 100yd backstops with both my load and the Hornady's.

Ed, I can't really recall the temperature but I think it was around 80 degrees maybe. What brass were you using?

Did you shoot the Hornaday ammo or did you load your own ammo with the DGX bullets?

Dave

I was shooting the factory loads. The brass I have been loading is Bell brass head stamped 470NE Rigby and Jamisson brass. I have loaded some of the Hornady brass with the same load as the other brass and it shoots great. I have shot several groups in 2" or less at 50yds.

I have a buffalo hunt in Zim Aug 10th thru the 25th so I have only been shooting off the shooting sticks for the last couple of months. I figure if I can regularly break clay targets at 50 and 100yds, I am within minute of buffalo.

Dave

Shoot it again at @40 to 50 yards, and at 100 yards and know which shots are from the right barrel and which are from the left.

Ed, I agree... If you are consistently breaking clay targets at 100 yards with iron sights, that is GREAT shooting. I am going to practice off the sticks at 60 meters. If I can consistently shoot four shots off the sticks into into a five inch paper plate at that distance, that's as good as I need. My eyes are not what they used to be so for anything longer, I would used a scope bolt gun.

I was wondering, have you tried either IMR of H4831?

N E 450 No2, I'll take a run at it again this weekend and let you know how it is shooting. I don't think it is "crossing."

Dave,
I started about 8 months ago shooting the 470 every weekend. I have always used a scope on a bolt gun, but the doubles have been a new challenge. For the past 6-7 months, I have not shot off the bench--only the sticks. Last weekend I broke 3 out of 4 clays at 50yds - the 4th was just over the top edge. I then shot at 100yds and broke 2 out of 3 with the miss just off the edge at 2 o'clock. I stopped there since that finished off all loaded shells in that box. I leave next Friday for a buffalo hunt so I am only shooting a few rounds now. (I have put almost 300 rounds thru that 470 this year.)

I did try IMR4831 but the recoil was noticeably heavier and it did not regulate as well as the RL15. My 500NE regulated very well with the IMR4831 and not the RL15. Merkel 500's are a bit light---ouch.

Good shootin Ed and good luck on your hunt!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Mac, since this was the first time with a handload on paper, I wasn't paying to much attention as to which one landed where. The same hole shots were from a left, then a right. I think it was just pure luck. One other left was just below and a right was just below and right I think.

Mac, I was thinking that at 2050 fps this load falls right in the Kynoch window. Kynoch shows their load at 2125 fps but that is from a 31 inch barrel. Would you try and soup this up or leave it as is?

I think I'd leave the load alone till I shot several groups at 75 and 100 yds, as Tony suggests. This will give you a better take on the load. I don't think a bufflao will know the difference between 2050, and 2125 fps! After you find a good average of three or four groups with that load, you could then add about a grain at a time and see if the speed average shrinks a little, as speed goes up. However 2050 fps with a 500 gr bullet from 24" barrels will absolutely ruin a big cape Buffalo bull's day, I assure you!

..............Fun ain't it?

Mac:

I'll leave the load alone and shoot and I will try and get out to the range this weekend to shoot some more at 50 yards.

One thing that did occur to me. The rifle seems to be shooting a bit low and to the left. I am thinking that it's at least possible that I am "canting" the rifle a bit when I put it to my shoulder. I have a tendency to do that with my bolt guns as well

You're right. This is fun. My darn job sure interferes with my shooting though

Mac and N E 450 No2:

I should probably listen to you guys more and follow my own advice. I loaded up ten more rounds but instead of leaving the load alone I decided to go up one grain of powder. No good. At 50 meters,they are crossing and groups opened up. Now, I am going to go down one grain from my original 88 grain load.

Note to self: When working up a load, DON'T load ten at a time. You know within four or five shots whether you are on the right track.

Remember our friend Josh who was trying to work up a load just before going to Africa? Bad plan. You want to do this well before a planned hunt. It takes some doing. However, I remember Josh saying he had a range on his place and could put together a load and shoot it without to much effort. I do envy that. If you could do your loading at your range, that would be way cool!

Dave--Josh does in fact have a loading set up at his range. Josh can shoot and reload his empties without having to move more than 15 feet. I don't know exactly how far his range goes, but it is quite a bit more than 500 meters.

I have a 504 yard range, and a covered firing line. I have to go 80 yards from my firing line to my reloading room. Josh and I both shoot a lot at our respective ranges, and load work up for different rifles is usually not much of a problem for either of us.

Dave here is a little story.

I have done a LOT of shooting and load development with my 450 No2.

When I first got it IMR 3031 was the powder of choice. Then it was IMR 4831. Then it was RL 15.

I have loads for all 3 powders with 350gr [yes the 75% rule works with ALL 3 powders], 480gr and 500gr bullets.

Before I went to Zim for the first time I had gone to RL 15.
My gun was shooting great with 89 grains at 50 yards.
One of the final tests I did was to shoot at 100 yards on a lifesize deer target.
The double shot a little low.
I dropped the load to 88 gr. This raised the point of impact to be proper at 100 [due to longer barrel time], regulation was still great.

Being able to hit where the rifle "looked" was much more important to me than a few fps.

Between the time I bought the rifle and the time I went on my first Safari I fired over 3000 [three thousand] rounds through the 450 No2, not many off the bench, and a bunch at some type of animal.

Dave, once you get your full power loads try some 400gr Hornady XTP bullets with the same powder charge.

I still use IMR 3031 [81 grains] with my 350 gr Hornadays in my 450 No2 because I have a bunch of it on hand.

you know the blasers are accurate but thats about all they are. fine for deer, elk, slow overweight mentally challenged bears with no axe to grind with humans but thats all they should be used for. no dangerous game.
they will get someone hurt or worse, dead.


since this thread is about impressions i will offer my 2 cents. i owned a blaser and do not anymore. it in my opinion was crap.
got two friends that previously owned them too.

if you want a great deal on a blaser and do not mind getting wet i will tell you where one sits at the bottom of the zambezi.
got witnesses to the story.

Gun toter:

Actually, the thread was about MY impressions about my S2 but thank you for sharing.

Guys, I'll try and shoot it again this weekend.

Yesterday, I tried shooting the S2 again. The load was a Hornaday case, Federal 215 match primer, 87 grains of Reloder 15, five grains of Dacron, and a 500 grain Woodleigh. Shooting from the sticks at 50 meters, I got a nice three inch vertical string shooting both rights and lefts. I am pretty sure that this is the regulation load. I attribute the vertical string to shooting error on my part. I have never tried shooting from sticks before and I am having a little trouble mastering the technique. So far, with my hand loads, the rifle has been shooting about two inches left. The rear sight is adjustable for windage but I didn't think it was a good idea to start screwing with the sight until I was pretty confident in my load.

I think I now understand why the Hornday ammo would not shoot in my gun. I went to the Kynoch web site and they show a velocity of 2125 fps. with their .470 ammo but that is from a 31 inch barrel. My gun has a 24.5 inch barrel. One other poster pointed out that you will lose 10-13 fps per second for every inch of barrel in the .470 and such. In my gun, the Kynoch ammo would be shooting at around 2025-2055 fps and that is exactly the velocity it is looking for. If the gun was not regulated with Kynoch ammo, it was regulated with something that was shooting right in the Kynoch window. While I did not chronograph the Hornday ammo, I suspect it was just shooting to fast to regulate in my gun.

I had some IMR 4831 sitting on my shelf and I wanted to give it a try as well. The conversion formula would suggest that it needs about 100 grain of IMR 4831 to duplicate the cordite load. My Hodgdon load manual suggests a starting load of 105 grains. I loaded up five rounds with 102 grains. I will shoot that across the chronograph today just to get a baseline velocity. Since this gun seems to be regulating at a little less velocity, if I wanted to shoot something without a filler, H4831 would probably be the better choice as it would fill the case a little better.

I have not yet loaded for my S2 470 as I came upon a good deel on some factory ammo several years ago. My S2 is regulated at the factory for the Woodleigh factory load. I also had several boxes of the TBBC factory load that did not regulate to the same site. I used the TBBC for awhile for practice until the prices jumped so crazy on them. It did not seem right to waste them then
Did your gun come with a target from the factory showing what factory load it was regulated with?

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
if you want a great deal on a blaser and do not mind getting wet i will tell you where one sits at the bottom of the zambezi.

Sorta wasteful. Might've made a decent drogue for drift fishing.
------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Dont the S2 rifles have adjustable regulation similar to the Merkel? Thought I read that somewhere.

Dave,
Stay with the Chrono....it will really help you understand what it happening. Your theory sounds correct however until you know what real velocities are being achieved...it is all still theory. Once your dialed in then loose the chrono but until then its use will be critical.

R

Roscoe, the S2 has adjustable regulation in the smaller calibers. However, the S2 Safari (.375, .500/.416, 470, and .500 NE) is regulated at the factory at 100 meters with a scope and is not adjustable.

I have been using a chrongraph. The groups really shrunk when I slowed it down to around 2050 with 88 grains of Reloder 15. I would guess the 87 grain load of Reloder 15 is running somewhere between 2000 and 2035.

quote:

Originally posted by txed:
I have not yet loaded for my S2 470 as I came upon a good deel on some factory ammo several years ago. My S2 is regulated at the factory for the Woodleigh factory load. I also had several boxes of the TBBC factory load that did not regulate to the same site. I used the TBBC for awhile for practice until the prices jumped so crazy on them. It did not seem right to waste them then
Did your gun come with a target from the factory showing what factory load it was regulated with?

I don't recall seeing a target in the box but I will look to be sure.

Could you tell me what you mean by the "Woodleigh factory load"? Do you mean the Kynoch load with a Woodleigh bullet?

Guys, I just got back from the range and I thought this was so amazing that I wanted to get it posted.

In this gun, I had previously tried Ross Seyfried's Reloder 15 formula (1.19 x cordite load = Reloder 15 load, drop down two grains to be safe). That worked perfectly. Eighty-eight grains of Reloder 15 with five grains of Dacron game me 2047 which is right in the Kynoch window. Eighty-seven grains regulated just a little better.

I also wanted to try IMR 4831 so I wouldn't have to fool with the filler. The IMR data is a bit more confusing. I have an article by Al Miller that was published in 1991. He suggests a conversion formula of cordite load X 1.333 = IMR 4831 load, no filler required. My Hodgdon Manual No. 26 suggests a starting load for IMR 4831 of 105 grains. However, if you follow Al Miller's suggestion, the IMR 4831 load works out to be right at 100 grains. I loaded up five rounds with 102 grains of IMR 4831 and took them to the range this afternoon. I had just cleaned the gun and no fowling shots were fired before testing. It's about 90 degrees here today. This is five shots, three rights and two lefts:

High: 2099
Low: 2073
Avg: 2084
ES: 26
SD: 10

Five hundred grain Woodleighs were used in all loads.

This tells me that Al Miller's data is spot on and, at least in my gun, the data from the Hodgdon Manual is too hot. I figure if I drop back two grains that should knock about 50 fps off and put me right back in the Kynoch window again!

This is just truly amazing. This gun ain't English but it sure shots like it was.

I love this gun!

quote:

Originally posted by txed:
I have not yet loaded for my S2 470 as I came upon a good deel on some factory ammo several years ago. My S2 is regulated at the factory for the Woodleigh factory load. I also had several boxes of the TBBC factory load that did not regulate to the same site. I used the TBBC for awhile for practice until the prices jumped so crazy on them. It did not seem right to waste them then
Did your gun come with a target from the factory showing what factory load it was regulated with?

Txed, I checked and didn't find a target but I did find a notation that it was regulated with "WR Ammunition". Since it is German, I am assuming that means Wolgang Romney and not Westley Richards