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Good day, Gentleman: I have a question that has been on my mind for several months. As you may know I (like many of you) am a fan of double rifles. However, for me nothing, repeat nothing, threepeat nothing beats a vintage British or Scottish double--black powder express, nitro express, bore rifle, or ball & shot guns. They are not rare by any stretch of the imagination except for certain calibers such as a .600 or .369 Purdey, etc. So my question is: with the resurgence of double rifles in the past decade or so, why is so much interest (I gauge interest by what I read on AR) in new doubles? Most of the new doubles are well made utility rifles. Some (like CCMDoc’s V-C) are works of art. Many are priced very well such as Sabatti. But many are priced in the ball park of a vintage UK rifle in common calibers between .400 and .470. So, if price is not an issue (and to many on AR it is not) why all the interest in newer, rather than, vintage doubles? We are all bound by our interests and prejudices and there is no “right” answer. For me, the older rifles have fit, feel, lines, and balance that can’t be equaled. I like the old style engraving whether on a best quality rifle or a plain grade rifle with just border engraving. And another thing the older rifles have is history. I research every double that comes into or thorough my hands and between 1/3 to 1/2 I have found the original owner, his family, can trace ownership, or find the original owner’s hunting exploits. I guess if all the interest in new doubles was focused on the older rifles the supply and demand would shoot up the prices so perhaps I am grateful (?). Anyway, I’m just curious and may use some replies for ammo for another article in the African Hunter. Merkel, Heym, V-C, Sabatti, etc., owners I welcome your efforts to educate me. Vintage owners, you are preaching to the choir but “what say you?” Cheers and thanks, all. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | ||
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Cal, I would think the interest in newer guns is driven mainly by availability of the old British rifles on the market today. The vintage guns also seem to be two to three times the price of the newer utilitarian guns. I'm basing that statement on a review of Champlain Arms' website. Many run in the high $20k's to mid $30k's whereas a Merkel, Chapuis, Searcy, K-Gun, etc run about $10K, VC around $15, Heym a bit more. Seems that one can expect to get their money out of the vintage rifles easier than the newer offerings however. Possibly another reason for a preference of the new guns. With the older rifles, one can easily end up buying a rifle that needs considerable work if not familiar with how to inspect it for proper function. A new gun "should" eliminate this but as seen with the first Sabatti's, that isn't always the case. | |||
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Cal, Good topic by the way. For me, I think it's about two things: 1) Cost.---I can buy at least two maybe three good shooting Merkels for what one of what I would consider to be a good shooting British double. 2) Reliability.---I know my Merkels are going to shoot well, and if a mechanical problem arises, I have a Merkel gunsmith close by to fix and support my purchase. Champlins currently has a .500 / .450 H&H that I really want. But I cannot afford it at present. I have a nice collection of fine rifles, at least I think most would consider my collection to be so. Yet, I would have to sell off most of my collection to pay for that H&H. And then after all that trouble selling guns to pay for the H&H, I still don't know what I've got. It may not shoot at all. No guarantees on these British guns, unless you special order one in the range of BIG $$$$$$. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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Cost is a paramount issue for me. Also, I have owned several vintage doubles, mostly continental German and Belgian, which were not as well made as English ones (which is why they were cheaper 30 years ago as well. They were rather disappointing the the regulation department so shooting them was not enjoyable. Good quality NE vintage doubles are simply out of the question for me. | |||
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I own a vintage British double rifle and I own modern doubles and express rifles. My vintage double will never be for sale while I'm alive! Having said that there isn't anything wrong with most modern and "utilitarian" doubles of today. For me, the criteria is a well made rifle that I can afford and shoot well. The Chapuis, Bernardelli, Valmet, do a great job for me. If I were to start again, Id buy a Searcy, Heym, V-C, K Gun in that order. I would buy a rifle with three sets of barrels. Something like a 450/400 3 " or 475 #2 Jeffery, a 8X57R or 6.5X57R scoped with claw mounts, and a 20 gauge set with chokes. but that's just me. Nothing like NIB with readily available spare parts and the really important item, "Warranty". the kind of warranty Butch puts on his rifles. The great customer service you get from people like Butch Searcy and HeymUSA's Chris Sells (New_Guy) is hard to beat. Bottom line as always, is a double you like, can afford and shoot well. If you have that rifle, then you have the best double rifle! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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For me it is not the cost it is personal preference. I have manton, watson bros. and have bought and sold several older guns. For me the heym's VC's feel better and shoot better (for me).All the don't shoot this bullet and that bullet in your older double makes me nervous while i can shoot what I want in the heym and VC and chapuis. I don't think they are better guns just better for me as I take them to africa and if I lost a new one I could replace it but not so easy on older doubles. | |||
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The vintage guns are the best and I have way too many that I just don't use. I've got many of the modern guns also and I will say none of the new guns have the grace on the old ones. These new builders just don't get it. That being said, I like my new guns because I don't care if they get beaten up a little on a hunt. The steels are better in the new guns and you would hope they would be more likely to not have issues using modern bullets and powders. Not saying the vintage guns would have a problem either. I just think there is a strength factor there. On a recent hunt to Australia I took a 500NE Sabatti that performed perfectly and every morning when I picked it up and saw rust and moisture all over the barrels from the nights sweat I just wiped it off and went on hunting. I just don't like doing that to a vintage gun even though I would. They were all made to be hunted with. I remember once handing my double to a tracker in Zim so I could use my bolt gun on a long shot. The tracker had my double for maybe 5 minutes and when I took it back there was a 1 inch long chip out of the wood behind the receiver. Now how could that happen? I would have been in jail for murder if that would have been my London 450-400. Sam | |||
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Affordability/value, replaceability/rarity, customization and reliability (accuracy, materials and function).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Great post Cal and hopefully you'll get many responses and here's mine. Without question, a classic vintage British double is the Holy Grail of DR aficionados and the demand far outstrips the finite supply. If you remember a few years ago "best grade" doubles could be had for a fraction of what they go for today (even adjusted for inflation). When I was in a position where I could afford a double (more or less) I started looking and looking hard. I started with and learned my lesson with a Sabbati, then looked again. Accordingly, I spent a LOT of time at DSC oogling over tables full of vintage and new doubles. For what I wanted, a British double would START at twenty grand plus and go from there. So I looked at the new and more affordable stuff, Merkel, Krieghoff, Heym and finally the Verney-Carrons. I don't know if you've ever handled or even shot one, but I wish somebody with YOUR background in doubles would do a side by side comparison between all the aformentioned marques and how they stack up to the British stuff. I know I did, and in my humble opinion when it came to form, fit, fucntion and quality, nothing came close to the VCs for the price, but I realize personal taste plays a big role and a VC in addition to the aforementioned reasons, comes closest to cloning a classic double than any other double in the 15K range. If you haven't you owe it to yourself to see one up close and personal. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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My interest in double rifles started as being functional weapons to take dangeroous game Ergo, reliability came first. Price point was important. A barely used Merkel was my first purchase. And yes, I do have a Sabatti with proper muzzles that is a real fine shooting rifle. All of us are merely holders in due course of our weapons. For those with the rresources to fund fine English best, we are also conservators of history, and charged with additional responsibility. DRs do become addictive...a known fact. I am now working part-time in the African safari industry, so, to repeat, it is reliability and price point. Eagle One NRA Benefactor SCI Life Africa: 2009, 20010, 2011, 2012 | |||
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Interesting that only one person has mentioned better steels in the modern guns, yet, there have been many pages on this forum about the use of monometals in older guns. Anyone remember that?!!! I realised long ago that I could not afford a "traditional" double rifle, mainly because I lacked the expertise to evaluate it and have a clear idea of what i was getting even at 2x or 3x the price of a new double. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I too had the question monometal vs age ?? There's a sad photo out there that shows the rifling on the outside of the barrel due to soft steel and hard monometal. | |||
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Cal, I think it depends on who you ask. I have spent with George at Champlins and he swears by the vintage guns as an "investment" that shoots. I struggle with the practicality of hunting with one that is worth more than $20k due to damage, etc. I like them and can own most of them but would be more comfortable with a Heym or Searcy or VC based on what I know of myself. With that said, I watched Aaron Nielson shoot a beat up Remington 700 in .375 Ultra Mag shoot lion after lion. So, would I rather spend money on a Holland & Holland double or do a couple of lion hunts? Bring on the lions!! | |||
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Cal: Great question. I love the old doubles. You are right, they have all the nostalgia in the world bur frankly, they new guns are built better. Better steels. Tighter tolerances. Exceptional wood and they cost a lot less. In addition, most of us simply don't have the expertise to evaluate an older gun. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Can you please post said picture. I keep hearing of this but have yet been offered any proof! Until I see this for myself, I consider it to be an old wives tale! Cal says he actually saw one rifle with OSR caused by an old style Barnes Solid, THE OLD model without bands. But he also said the guy refused to go over and speak with the Barnes guys about it (saw the rifle at a show). I'm thinking this fellow's refusal to speak with the Barnes guys maybe indicates something other than what he claimed to Cal. Cal, can you add to this. IIRC, you also stated that the old Barnes type solid was oversized by .002"? | |||
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Correct, except there is always someone close at hand with a CRF or double rifle.  | |||
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Quality is quality and it costs more, plain and simple. Vintage guns were made by different makers and some made guns better than others and, in their day, different makes and models cost different prices. So, just because a gun is a vintage British double doesn't mean it was one of the best of the best. The same is true today. A Sabatti is not the same quality as a Merkel, and a Chapuis is not the same quality as a Westley Richards. Neither are all French guns of the same quality, nor all German Guns, nor all British guns. If someone wants a made-to-order gun then it seems like they are left with a choice between makers charging $35000 and under or makers charging $75000 and up. A similar gap in new off-the-rack guns exists between about $25000 and $50000. So the choice in a new gun becomes one of choosing a well made gun or a best made gun. However, there are many second hand guns to be had, both continental and British. I think second hand guns nicely fit in and around the prices of the new guns. You can find a very decent used gun under $10000 and you can buy some of the best guns made for far less than they would cost new. You can also find some nice second hand guns within the price gaps of new guns, as mentioned above. Unless you want a made-to-order gun, I think you can get a lot more quality for your money buying second hand. And, among second hand guns, a best gun is still a best gun and will cost more than a gun that was made to a lesser standard. . | |||
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Cal...Thanks for the interesting topic. When I first began buying doubles economics were what primarily dictated my purchases. It was really all about an affordable price point and the best quality rifle I could purchase with those funds. Saving up many thousands of dollars to get into a double rifle took a great deal of saving effort! My very first double was a Merkel and it served me well. It offered a price point, shootability, and aesthetics that I could enjoy. As time passed I was drawn yet again to the English double. I knew that buying a new English double was not where I wanted to invest my money but I was always attracted to the vintage English doubles. Perhaps some of that was the nostalgic connection to an Africa of days gone by. There was always something about the fine craftsmanship, the beautiful engraving, and imagining the places that vintage rifle might have been that added to the magic. It is why I own vintage English double rifles today! They hold their value, shoot well, handle great, and always have a special place in the heart of African double rifle hunters. When cost is removed from the discussion, some prefer the idea of having modern steel, a rifle that can be made to the buyer’s tastes, and tailored to their specific dimensions. While dimensions can always be adjusted on the vintage rifles there is an added cost. Some changes could alter the value. Having a vintage double repaired by a gunsmith is not particularly difficult if one has a competent gunsmith. When buying new, the purchaser can always fall back on the manufacturer/dealer if there is a problem that arises. Some likely find comfort in this area of concern. I think cost will always be a big consideration for most double rifle buyers. There is also a momentum of interest in the price point nestled between the modern utility doubles you mentioned and the low to moderately priced vintage English doubles. This area is where the Heym doubles are gaining in popularity. I have had the opportunity to shoot and enjoy the fine craftsmanship offered in the modern Heym double rifles ranging from .450/.400 to .577 NE. Of the modern double rifles now being offered these are my personal favorites. They have a great English feel and balance. What Thomas, Manfred, and the workers at Heym are offering to their customers is truly worth investigating when looking for a modern double. Offering full disclosure, I have participated in the Heym event in Germany and also toured their factory in Gleichamberg. I have not been gifted or purchased any discounted firearms from Heym nor have I been paid to endorse their products. Best always, Shawn Shawn Joyce Diizche Safari Adventures P.O. Box 1445 Lincoln, CA 95648 E-mail: shawn.joyce@diizchesafariadventures.net Cell: (916) 804-3318 Shoot Straight, Live the Dream, and Keep Turning the Pages to Your Next Adventure!™ Website- www.DiizcheSafariAdventures.com Blog- http://diizchesafari.blogspot.com/ Twitter- http://twitter.com/DiizcheSafari YouTube- http://www.youtube.com/user/shawncjoyce Facebook- http://on.fb.me/gYytdn Instagram: diizchesafari_official | |||
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My vote for the vintage. Just got back from Zim with Richie Schultz and CMSafaris. Took my John Wilkes .475 No.2 NE with handloads and scored two one-shot frontal brain on tuskless and bull. Gun is like new and would not have enjoyed it so much with a modern double as I love the nostalgia. Accurate and reliable and like brand new. Than being said, I had a sidelock back-action .450-400 3 1/4 screw-grip made and delivered two days before departure. Fits under modern made but from England. Justifies a new trip as now I am addicted to ele's. Do I retire the .475 or take both? Hunt report when I get the pics back. Dutch | |||
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Teacher wages living in Australia: Merkel was the very best I could afford. | |||
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I'd love to have a vintage British double. One of the main things that keeps me away is my limited education in the world of the British double. I'd sure hate to wind up with a proper British vintage 20K + tomato stake. So for now I'll be satisfied with my Searcy. One of these days however I will have a proper working example of a vintage British Double rifle in a righteous caliber. | |||
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Dutch, Do you mind if I ask how long you've had that 475 No.2? The reason I ask is that a friend of mine owned one by the same manufacturer several years ago. He lives in Dallas, TX but had to sell it maybe 10 or 12 years back. It was the very first double rifle I ever shot. Would be interesting to know if it was the same gun! BTW, CMS is a great outfit, eh? Did you hunt Dande? Out of the Pedza Pasi camp? | |||
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Todd , If I knew where to find that photo I would have posted it . Looking at some of the monometal bullets makes me nervous. Obduration of a lead bullet is easy even hardened , jacketed lead just a bit more difficult but a monometal is much more difficult .If a lead bullet has just a few grooves a monometal needs lots of them .Otherwise the stresses will be very high. http://www.shakariconnection.c...lets-for-africa.html Look especially at the 6th generation discussion. http://www.calpappas.com/id88.html Cal Pappas ? where have I heard that name before ?  | |||
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Mete, If you haven't already, take a look at the "Double Rifle Bullet of the Future" thread. Michael458 and Sam Rose did extensive testing of most of the popular bullets on the market today. Some very surprising results. The CEB, monometal with driving bands, consistently produces the lowest barrel strains in just about every bullet weight and caliber tested. The Woodleigh FMJ, Hornady DGX and DGS consistently produce the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd highest barrel strains across the board. The nice thing about the data in that thread is that we no longer have to rely on what "so and so told me this" etc as we can now see for ourselves with objective and repeatable data what really does and what really does not produce excessive strain. What is interesting to me is that the 3 bullets that produce the highest strains, are the very bullets most often used by the manufacturers to regulate double rifles with!! The Woodleigh Soft was used as the benchmark "safe" bullet. But the point is that if the Hornady and Woodleigh FMJ are used to regulate and they produce the highest strains, then there is no way OSR can be attributed to bullets such as the TSX! Now the old X bullet without bands, who knows. The TSX used to, and maybe still does, get a lot of negative press in DRs but it just doesn't add up when the science is put to the test. Of note also is that many of the monumetal bullets of old design were undersized. So, IMO, looking at the data available to us now, I think most of the negative press about the monumetals was not valid, especially in light of the fact that many were undersized to begin with, such as the Barnes bullets. | |||
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Gentlemen: Thanks for your informative replies and I will add some additional thoughts after more posts are made. As to OSR, I had always thought it was an urban legend. I have listened to all sorts of crap of those who "know" the dangers of monometal bullets in double rifles. The most nonsensical one was, "I actually saw the rifling lands shoot out of the muzzle about 12 inches long. They were pushed out by the monometal bullet." I wrote my opinion of this and other OSR comments. I had to eat crow and posted an apology on my website. At SCI in 2009 or 10 Graeme Wright asked me to take a walk with him and see OSR. I met a gent who handed my a .450-400 double. I could not see nor feel any OSR. Then I was asked to hold the barrels up to the light so the reflected light was illuminated on the barrel's exterior. Sure enough there it was. More shadows than feel but a definite showing of the rifling twist on the exterior. The owner was angry as hell at Barnes bullets but would not go talk with them. He was angered by past written correspondence. I went to Barnes to discuss the matter and came back to Alaska with four boxes of the banded solids for my .600 Wilkes. I shot them. Slow at first and gradually building up velocity until the regulated 1900 fps and no sign of OSR. The numerous bands and the .002" smaller diameter kept all within safe pressure levels. I don't shoot them anymore as I like a traditional style such as Woodleigh, but there were no problems. As to the cause? Hard metal in the bullet, no doubt. Soft barrel steel, too. But also (perhaps) coupled with too large a diameter (lots of variations in the .450-400 between .407 and .413 I have seen) and perhaps excessive velocity. Whatever the reason, I am now a believer. Later I would like to comment on price, value, better steels today, better made, etc... as posted prior by others. Again, thanks all. Cal PS. Mete??? _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal, I had a Ruger M-77 in 338 Win Mag back that I purchased new back in 1983 that showed the same shadows along the barrel when held up to the light. That gun's barrel was like that from the factory and never had a monometal bullet fired in it. It was a tack driving rifle as well, even with the shadow rifling along the barrel. I'm just not convinced this is something caused by shooting a certain bullet type down the tube or for that matter, shooting a bullet down the tube at all. I suspect it is a flaw in manufacturing from the start. For a fact, it was on that Ruger of mine. Sorry for the thread hijack. I'll back out of the sidetrack now unless someone wants to start an OSR thread. Good thread by the way Cal! | |||
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Todd: I purchased the Wilkes in November of 2011 from a gentleman in Idaho. Like new condition. Had ordered some .483 CEB 13's from CEB but they had not produced them by the time of my trip. Shame as the CEB 13 FMJ .458 500 grainers performed wonderfully. I used Woodleighs in the .475 No2. Worked very well. Dutch | |||
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Depends on what you are looking for. If you wanted a commuter car, would you make a Ford Model A or other classic car into a daily driver? Older guns come with old designs, springs, and old parts. If you shoot a lot I think the avg person would be better served by a modern gun. I have seen modern guns that have had 4,000 rounds through them and still on face and no one had been inside. Try that with a classic gun and it will have been sent back several times to be put back on face. I divide classic guns into two categories, collectable and shooters. Just because it is old does not in itself make it collectable. Collectable requires condition, rarity, quality, and demand. Shooter grade will often show excessive cosmetic wear, out of time screws, chewed screws, lower quality makers, alterations, etc. The problem is that currently a lot of shooter grade classic guns are priced as collectable. Stock fit....you can have a modern gun made to your dimensions, many of the older guns that I have looked at just do not fit well. Bore diameter....older guns can be all over the place. I have all types of guns, modern, collectable and classic shooter grade. If I am going any distance to hunt it will be with a modern gun, the classic shooters get out to the range and the occasional hunt, I do not shoot my truly collectable guns. Break a part, bulge a barrel, fall and break the stock, and your collectable gun is now a shooter grade gun and worth a small fraction of what it was before. Ken DRSS, PP Chapter Life NRA Life SCI Life DSC | |||
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The vintage guns are very special to me. They add pleasure every time I hunt with them. I especially enjoy the smaller/mid size calibres. When hunting deer here in the east, I prefer to use my H&H .240 flanged, George Gibbs .303, W.R. droplock .318, C&H .375 2 1/2" flanged or Joseph Lang .360 No.2. There is nothing like walking on the woods or sitting in a stand with such a beautiful hand made firearm. That being said, I would love to take my H&H .500/.465 to Zim next February. Fact is, I'm afraid to add wear to it in the heat, humidity and rain that time of year. I also still have some concern about using the North Forks in the 1936 gun. As a result, I plan on taking my V-C .500 and .577. Modern steel and no problem using those great CEB BBW #13 bullets. If either gets a few dings or blue wear, it will in no way ruin my safari. Deo Vindice, Don Sons of Confederate Veterans Black Horse Camp #780 | |||
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Dutch: A year or two ago I sold my Wilkes .475 no2. The last three digits of the serial number are xx149. Is this your rifle? If so, I have some amazing history for you. (Did I mention this to you in the past?) Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Chrome moly alloy steels changed the way rifles can be built, starting around WW2. Safety factors in guns now are several times above what was used 100 years ago when frames were low carbon steel at best and usually iron, and barrels were low carbon steel alloyed with nickel if you were lucky. That is why British DRs' weight is "between the hands". It had to be for strength. | |||
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Excellent point, I had a vendor next to me at SCI two years ago that had a old 450-400 that was wider than my current 577's. Ken DRSS, PP Chapter Life NRA Life SCI Life DSC | |||
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Let me start off by saying I grew up shooting my grandfathers double 375H&H flanged magnum made by H&H and have used it extensively so am talking from some level of experience in using a vintage rifle. Lots of friends in India also had vintage british rifles some in great shape others in not so good shape. The balance, smell, nostalgia, photos are all great but you have to realize all these rifles are atleast 70 years old now and often older and however romantic you want to get over it, you have to realize that you are dealing with an old girl with some issues! If I was serious about a double rifle today I would buy a new english double if I could afford one or settle for a heym or the next best one you can afford. Sometime ago I shot a friends brand new 500 WR it was simply amazing! | |||
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Cal: My .475 is 4 digits ending in xx58 and was made in 1927, I believe. Original case colors, beautiful wood 14 7/8 lop, side-clips, no initials on silver oval, ivory flip up night site, 26 inch chopper lump barrels, bright bores, 3/4 coverage engraving. Nice gun. Dutch | |||
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Cal, First, thank you for the very kind words. Coming from a man with so extensive experience with stunning and awe-inspiring vintage doubles - well I am humbly appreciative. Second, I've not read any of the other responses as I wanted to give you my own, personal reasons without benefit of reading that of others. I would LOVE to own a vintage double - a fine 600NE would be perfect in my eyes. My reason for not pursuing such is that I don't think I could enjoy what I enjoy most - playing with and sharing my double. I like the feeling of being able to go anywhere and do everything with my doubles. I especially like being able to say to someone: "Hey, you want to try this? Here you go. Want to use it for your safari? I'll send it out to you. No don't worry, have a great time. It's meant to be used." Don't get me wrong, I am exquisitely obsessive compulsive and hate bad things to happen to them. BUT My perspective is that if it is damaged, it can be fixed if need be or i want it so. Simple as that. Vintage stuff - never the same regardless of the skill, material or place of repair. Never the same. And so I would never be relaxed enough to enjoy that vintage H&H or WR or anything one would hold dear. I have raced rather expensive cars and people asked "Aren't you worried about crashing?" Sure! but if I do, I can repair it to as good or better than new - and not feel bad about it. I restore muscle cars and am slowly working on another 1971 'Cuda convertible. Once done I drive them regularly rain, snow or summer sun. If I break something, I can fix it and not feel bad. But if I had one of the 3 unrestored (as in exactly as it rolled off the line with not a part replaced or paint touched) original 1971 Hemi 'Cuda convertibles that exist, I doubt it would ever roll on its own tires on pavement. I just couldn't enjoy it. Nothing against those who get stuff to admire on the walls or in the safe or in some display. I'm glad those folk exist to preserve the cool stuff I'll never own - because I like to look, admire and respect these pieces too. Nothing against those who use these irreplaceable items either - in fact I have great respect for you. You are able to enjoy these things as I wish I could, but can't and you have my great admiration and respect. Me, I'll stick to enjoying things I know will have historical value only to me. If you or I or my dad put a ding or scratch in it while battling the thorn of Africa or blueberry bushes of Upstate NY, well then we'll remember and cherish those times. If you or I or pop drops it and puts a scratch or ding or breaks the wrist or something else - no worries, we'll just have it fixed. And no harm done. So, nothing deep as to my reasons, but there they are. With greatest respect to all who ponder these things and who own and use the fine vintage doubles as their makers intended. Paul NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Cal I agree that the vintage double rifles have the added mystique of it’s history of ages gone by as is indicated by the common phrase “ If this thing could only talk, the stories it could tell!”. I too love older double rifles and have some as well as some new ones and each have their place. There are justifications for buying either one, but they are not the same for both. Buying a Vintage double rifle! #1 is its collector value! This is a very best deal if it is in vey good ORIGENAL condition, with normal patina, and acceptable wear, with the Name maker being a very large part of the value. #2 is because of its operational condition. If this is not simply a collector piece, then it has to be fully functional, for the purpose the chambering indicates. Bore needs to be pristine with as little as is possible Cordite burn, and shoot to the regulation built into the rifle by its maker. Most who buy any double rifle intend hunting with it. However the vintage are still very old, and the #1 reason someone new to double rifles shouldn’t buy vintage without help. In some cases they are really pigs in silk cloths. And most first time buyers of double rifles are not sophisticated enough on the older double rifle to make a good choice. The fact is nobody is making NEW 90 to 100 yr old double rifles! In many cases you would think they were, because some of the totally re-finished old rifles that look brand new but are really junk, simply designed to deceive and justify a high price! This is one of the reasons why a guy that is new to double rifles should NEVER buy a vintage double rifle unless he has someone who is in the know about vintage double rifles to help him. There are a lot of dolled up wall hangers out there today, and A vintage double rifle is, after three days, yours! If it doesn’t shoot well…………………. Buying a new double rifle! #1 the buyer is usually buying the rifle to hunt with and the rifle is regulated with modern ammo which is big plus! #2 The new rifle is usually accompanied by a factory warranty if anything goes wrong, #3 If lost it is replaceable with one exactly like the one you lost. This is not the case with a vintage double. If fully insured, you may get the money, but every vintage double rifle is a one-off piece, and is not replaceable with an exact copy. #4 the New working type double is going to be cheaper than any vintage double rifle that is in even fair condition, and will shoot properly with modern ammo, or handloads with modern powders. #5 the most important reason for the new guy to buy new is he may not be the double rifle person he thought he was, and when he decides he is not the customer base is far wider for a brand new/used double rifle than for a vintage double rifle. In the final analysis the price point for a new double rifle , made from far better steel, and the replaceable factor IMO it it far better for a new guy to buy new for his first double rifle. And one of the perks of the new rifle the description of one is applies to every one of that brand, model and chambering. There are some modern double rifles that if ordered to fit its owner are actually better suited to African hunting than the very expensive Britt vintage double rifle, even if they are at the same price point. When you get down to facts one is a 100 yr old used rifle, and the other is brand new, and made of better steel! ................................................................  ...........................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Well spoken and I concurr for the most part., JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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Well done Mac, and I concurr on every issue I think. Well written and what most folks should be looking for in a double (especially their first double rilfe). JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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I enjoy a vintage doublegun. Last year I took my Rigby B&S gun to SA for a blast. Could I have have had a good time had it been a Rem1100 instead?. Sure!. But it would´n have been the same when using a vintage hammergun from London. Bringing a special gun for hunting also ends up with campfire conversations. It is my impression that those who love to hunt in Africa, enjoys the the fame of yesteryears history and guns too.   DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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For me, its two factors. Price, is the main one, as I simply can't afford a 20K rifle at this time. Secondly, use. I will not hesistate to take my Sabatti, or Chapuis into the field, when its raining, or they might get some rough handling. For one thing, I can afford to replace them, and secondly, there is nothing special or unique about them. They're mass produced, factory guns. A hand built, 20+K British or German gun, I don't know I could take to the field, for fear of damaging. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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