This is my 2nd 9.3 Chapuis and I have to admit that I find the action very stiff, both upon cocking the action and ejectors, and more importantly, when opening and closing the action with the action/ejectors already cocked. I honestly don't remember my 1st Chapuis 9.3 at all in this regard, but it must have been just as tight and stiff. There must be something unique about the Chapuis action design that's keeps constant spring tension of some source on the opening and closing of the action. Compared to my Demas 470 this little 9.3 is a brute. The Demas for example, though it has a unique lug design, is like so many (all?) other doubles I've encountered in that when these two mechanisms are cocked, the action literally falls open and drops closed with no resistance at all. Can one of you few DR gurus please shed some light on this? That 1st Chapuis 9.3 was my first DR and although I'd handled a few other makes by then, the nature of the Chapuis action then didn't impress me in such a strong way. Not that anything is amiss, mind you, it's just that this thing is so hard to manipulate. My wife has a very hard time and it's meant to be half her gun (kinda like a Homer Simpson bowling ball) when we go shoot something big.

compared to some of the other DR's i've handled, it weighs 3 lbs less... even with the "balance of the rifle between your hands", the bigger calibers (450/400, 470ne, 500 ne) etc have heaver barrels.. that being said, the heavier barrels seem to open easier... my chapuis has about 120 rounds thru it, and won't fall open like well used shotgun...but it is easrier than when i first got it... mine is the UGEX with extractors...

All it needs is some nose grease.

Was wondering if it would loosen with use. And yes, it's lubricated.

Here's the thing; when ejectors are cocked, there is tension on the ejectors when disassembled, never encountered this before. If you disassemble when all is cocked (not for storage!), when you come to remove the barrels, upon moving the top lever this spring tension will actually push the action open. This may be a form of an assist but maybe it needs to loosen up alot more, because this not noticed when opening the rifle while assembled. Also, apart with all uncocked, the ejectors themselves do not move freely back and forth. There is alot of friction along the length of them and are very, very stiff. Was this planned? I was speaking with someone who sees alot of these and he asked if I noticed that these ejectors don't move, ever! In another maker's rifle, if apart, the ejectors slide back and forth often just under gravity, whether they were cocked or not. Seems on traditional guns that there is a disconnect of spring tension upon disassembly. Just rying to understand what makes this thig tick.

I have a 9.3 with ejectors, and it is firm but easy to open, even with very few rounds through it. I feel like it is loosening up nicely.
When I was shopping a couple of years ago, the stiffness of Merkels (and the extremely uncomfortable edges to carry due to the square action shape)was what caused me to go to the Chapuis. Ued ones I loked at were way too stiff IMHO, and the three new ones I handled had to almost be broken over your knee.

In my experence all NEW double rifles that are properly fitted are very stiff for the first 100 or so rounds. With a new double I only lube the hook and pin and the greener corss bolt, if one is included, and leave the rest of the surfaces dry for about 50 rounds. Then I lube properly for the next 50 rounds, and they seem to remain tight, but smooth.

A "NEW" double rifle that dropps open is, IMO, not well fitted, and will eventually shoot loose! As stated the Merkels are very tight when new, and again, IMO, are fitted properly, but the break-in of any double should be done properly. The reason for only lubeing the hook & pin is to allow slight wear of the other surfaces. The hook & pin should never be allowed to wear, because this is where the "off face" condition comes from.

Seems to me I 've handled new fine guns and they were very genteel in this respect. A mark of a truly fine double is that you don't have to horse it around, even when,especially, when new.

My Demas was always easy to open and close when fully cocked. New, it had some friction, and still does.

Yes Merkels are tight too. But they are also very hard to assemble when new and I don't see the benefit of this. On this Chapuis and a new Merkel 9.3 they both had to be coerced and coaxed to get the forestock in place.

I am the third owner of mine as far as I can tell ... and I have 206 rounds on it (some with the shotgun barrels). Has ejectors. Always well lubed with Tetra. Still pretty stiff, but getting better over time. Frankly I do not expect it to every just fall open.

I have only seen one Chapuis, the UGEX 9.3x74r that I owned. It was an extractor gun and was hard to open from the time it was new till I traded it, probably only had about 250 rounds thru it and was always lubed. It was exceedingly hard to open and actually made you want to put it across the knee. You definitely could not work the lever and have the action come open at all. I usually had to tuck the butt under my arm to open. The 8x57R Merkel 141 I have now is not nearly so stiff on opening. You can work the lever and holding the PG snap the barrels down and the action will start to open. My Heym 88B 375 on the other hand opened just by pressing the lever over and the barrel weight would open action but not all the way. My Merkel 470 was quite stiff when new but did loosen up some. The Otto Geyger 8x60r I had would open smoothly just by pressing the lever. All these have been extractor guns except the 5x57 Merkel.

My ejector 9.3X74R UGEX seems to open and close jsut fine. It's had less than 100 rounds thru it. I mean it doesn't just flop open, but I don't seem to have to force anything. I use Militec grease on my doubles.

Excellent observations, Zim. My points exactly.

I'm trying to gain insight into this action design. I'm not being completely critical. I had a Heym 88B Safari 470 too and it did as described by you, and by me on my Demas; it would drop open (infact the Demas does not go ALL the way open either). I think the Chapuis is a strong action. We know JJ and George at Champlin's are just apeshit over it. But WHY is it strong? What's up with the opposing tension in some of these modes? What are these springs doing? Is some tension contributing to holding the action the action closed?

I would like this thing to be like others in this regard.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Excellent observations, Zim. My points exactly.

I'm trying to gain insight into this action design. I'm not being completely critical. I had a Heym 88B Safari 470 too and it did as described by you, and by me on my Demas; it would drop open (infact the Demas does not go ALL the way open either). I think the Chapuis is a strong action. We know JJ and George at Champlin's are just apeshit over it. But WHY is it strong? What's up with the opposing tension in some of these modes? What are these springs doing? Is some tension contributing to holding the action the action closed?

I would like this thing to be like others in this regard.

Showbart, it sounds like it is just poorly timed! I have an old double barreled shotgun,a cowboy coach gun, that seems to have opposing spring tention impeding the barrels opening all the way. When loading it, one must push the barrels down slightly so the shells will slide into the chambers fully. The shotgun is an extractor gun, so there are no ejector springs, so it is poorly timed cocking lever springs.

I have several different brands of doubles, and none exibit the problems you sight here. After a short break-in, on the new ones, they have all worked properly.

I have little personal experience with the Chapuis actions, and so am not aware of any inherant problems with them, and yours is the first complaints I've come accross with a Chapuis. 450 Nitro has a Chapuis UGEX, 9.3X74R, and as far as I know has had zero problem with it!

Yes, Mac, it's still too new. I can't say much more until I put more thru it and right now that's less than half a box. It ejects perfectly so the timeing of the ejectors is good. Not really complaining...I will certainly allow more time shooting...I think it's the nature of the beast and I'm trying to understand better how this action works. It may very well loosen up quite a bit but it has this spring tension which is hard for a dummy like me to ID. I'm feeling sure it's how it's designed.

My 9.3 Ugex opened up fine from the start; not loose but no problems. My only complaint is how extremely tight the forend is; so tight I was afraid to put it back together..
Rick

I'm sitting here messing with it now, trying to figure more of it out. The ultra tight forend is part of all this.

Again, I started this as a question, with the latter part asking what occurred over time with use. This thing may be loosening as I practice with caps. I'm still trying to figure out how/when the ejectors are cocked. I think everything cocks upon opening.

I have handled a number of Chaps over the last 15 years and yes like Heym they are very tight almost to a dangerous level this is why I tell everyone at the shows to losen it up if your going hunting and for the most part they don't listen and have witnessed tight rifles screwing people up with rhino and buff to the point I am sure they destroyed the video after. What you are descibing can be adjusted in a few minutes and yes it is conect to the forearm. I once put 100 rounds through a heym over a year and jewelers rouged the action and then would watch golf and open and close it a thousand times over a couple of months and it Never got better. In houston the past GM at Briley is available to my father and I or you do have Briley proper that can adjust it.

I will say that watching a PH with a Heym with S&S in TZ run through the gass and reload by snapping the rifle like a cowboy to prevented the buff from going into grass was the way to go and if you saw Adams heym and really hunted in 4 meter grass then you would want it lose like this, but pass on the duct tape for the cracked stock fro all the abuse.

My Heym 470 was well broken in, but perceivable resistance was quite high when opening (cocking the action) and closing (cocking the ejectors). I mentioned this here back then as it was one of the main, if not the main, deciding factors in my decision to choose my Demas instead of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
I'm still trying to figure out how/when the ejectors are cocked. I think everything cocks upon opening.

Showbart, the ejectors cock on closeing, the locks are cocked on opening!

The ejectors can't cock on opening,because this is when they EJECT, de-cocking themselves!

I know it's sounds crazy, stupid too. But nothing noticable happens during this stroke.

The ejector mechanism is a different breed of cat then on most other double rifles.

Use a good quality grease in the hinge pin, on the front of the action/back of the fore end.

Also grease the contact surfaces of the cocking levers, and the contact surfaces of the ejector mechanism.

I also grease the cockling lugs, only one lug on the Chapuis.

Then just shoot the rifle some. It should loosed up.


The reason the Chapuis "springs" open when you are breaking it down with the ejectors cocked, is that the Chapuis ejector system is mounted to the barrel.

You can cock and uncock the ejectors on the Chapuis my pressing the ejector at the rear of the barrel against a table edge and manuplitating the little levers on the bottom of the barrel.

Study how it works and lube the contact areas.

Thx Tony. Thought I was losing my mind. Do the ejectors actually "cock" at all? Or is it some sort of engage/trip setup making use of some constant spring tension? What is that exposed spring in the bbls?

I read a blurb about what makes the Chapuis different-the basis of it's good strength. That the lugs arent't in line with the rib but in line with th bbls, changing the nature of recoil stress. Seems to make sense. Seems it may make the perceived recoil on the big bores greater tho.

As I understand it:
The little exposed coil springs put pressure on the levers causing them to hold the ejectors cocked.

The ejectors are cocked when the action is closed, which forces the ejectors flush with the chambers so the little levers can capture them much like the hammer, trigger sears function.

When the rifle is fired and then opened the lever releases the ejector, under tension from the wide flat springs, causing the "extractor" to eject the brass.

On the barrel that is not fired, or both if not fired the extractor is not tripped and the round is just raised up.

Closing the action then resets the extractor mechanism.

If you take the rifle apart and press the extractors, one at a time against the edge of a table and work the approperate lever you can cock and uncock the ejector mechanism.

I would grease these sear surfaces.

Those 2 wide flat shiny things under the bbls are the springs that power the extractor.

Okay, first off I don't know squat about how a double works, but difficult opening and closing would seem to be more a function of the tension the forearm puts on the receiver (which is why the forerm is so damn hard to put back on).

I had a 20 ga. shotgun that was like that that my Dad took and did "something" to it so it just fell open and easily closed. Of course, I didn't pay any attention nor asked what he did. Surely gunsmiths know what is going on.

If you cock one and then close it, take the forend off, the action just falls open ... therefore I conclude that it is the forend tension that is the culprit.

Will
The fit of the fore end could add or be the sole cause to the stiffness, but also in the case of the Chapuis, and others, it holds everything in place so the "mechanism" works when opened, thus any stiffness in the mechanism would be released if the fore end was off.

Showbart

What is the difference in the "stiffness" on your Chapuis if it is opened without firing vs. firing, and in closing when fired and not fired?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Will
The fit of the fore end could add or be the sole cause to the stiffness, but also in the case of the Chapuis, and others, it holds everything in place so the "mechanism" works when opened, thus any stiffness in the mechanism would be released if the fore end was off.

True, but then if not the forend tension then it would boil down to difficult cocking hammers (springs too strong, or rough surfaces).

Either way, I do not understand or can see the reason why a forend would have to be tight at all.

This must be old hat to someone.

Are we going to let this die?

I still want to know the answer!

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Showbart

What is the difference in the "stiffness" on your Chapuis if it is opened without firing vs. firing, and in closing when fired and not fired?

No real difference. If any it's upon opening/cocking. Closing is the same. Upon closing I hear, feel, sense nothing going on at all in the way of ejectors cocking.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:


Either way, I do not understand or can see the reason why a forend would have to be tight at all.

Nor do I.

My Chapuis is very easy to open and only slightly haredr to close as it cockes the firing springs on closing.

The Chapuis "cocks" the ejectors [compreses those flat springs] every time you close it.

Just lube everything up and use the rifle some, it will loosen up.

Mine is still stiff as hell but doesn't have 100 rounds through it yet. It is better then when out of the box but still too stiff.

Good golly. Someone must know why these things are so stiff!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Good golly. Someone must know why these things are so stiff!

JJ Perodeaux!

Showbart,

I have a Chapuis "Brousse" in .375 and found the same problem. Prior to going on a hunt for Buffalo in the N.T. of Australia, I worked the action every day trying to get that freedom that you are talking about. The hunt went well but on returning, I sent it to Rolf Bachnick a German gunsmith well known in Australia for Double Rifles / Big Game Rifles and told him of my concerns with the opening / closing which was just one and when he received the rifle he said that the Lever to open & close was adjusted to compensate for future wear ( was in the 5 O'clock position instead of 6 O'clock ) and I asked him to "Induce" some wear, that is, back off the lever a tad to make it smoother to open etc. He done that and says that it now feels more natural, this in addition to lightening the triggers as they were also very heavy, too heavy for both myself and the two P.H.'s in camp.

quote:

Originally posted by CHAPUISARMES:
Showbart,

I have a Chapuis "Brousse" in .375 and found the same problem. Prior to going on a hunt for Buffalo in the N.T. of Australia, I worked the action every day trying to get that freedom that you are talking about. The hunt went well but on returning, I sent it to Rolf Bachnick a German gunsmith well known in Australia for Double Rifles / Big Game Rifles and told him of my concerns with the opening / closing which was just one and when he received the rifle he said that the Lever to open & close was adjusted to compensate for future wear ( was in the 5 O'clock position instead of 6 O'clock ) and I asked him to "Induce" some wear, that is, back off the lever a tad to make it smoother to open etc. He done that and says that it now feels more natural, this in addition to lightening the triggers as they were also very heavy, too heavy for both myself and the two P.H.'s in camp.

I hear you on the trigger pull! I have to send mine of to JJ to lighten them they are like 8-10 pounds! I couple times I even checked to see if the safety was still on because the triggers weren't breaking.

There will always be resistance when closing, it appears to be the nature of the ejector design. As was said, when broken down you can "decock" the ejectors. The things are under alot of tension, tension that has to be displaced when you close it normally. I maybe didn't notice this so much on my 1st Chapuis 9.3 and the Chapuis 470s I've handled and the one I shot, chalking it up to being new. I handled a new Merkel 470 ejector gun Friday and it was somewhat genteel. It was reasonable to cock both the action and ejectors, and was easy to open/close when all was cocked.

Another suprise. I tapped on the buttstock and it rings hollow. Chapuis relieves alot of wood from inside the butt to keep the rifle from being butt heavy because the barrels are so thin. But not having a neat, cylindrical drawbolt hole to work with makes adding weight a real chore. I have e temp setup with 4oz added and it's perfect. Now to figure out how to deal with the small cavern that is the inside of the butt. This has been my arguement all along about 9.3 DRs. Just as there is a correct weight for a 375 or 450/400 DR (not 10.5#'s!) I feel that the perfect weight for a 9.3 DR is 8 lbs, not 6-7. Merkel screwed the pooch when they dumped the 9.3 on the 20 ga frame and put it on the 28 ga frame ONLY. They should offer both.

About the top levers, I don't recall what postion a new/like new ultra premium DRs top lever rests in when closed. All the DR I come across are all at 5:00. Is this really to compensate for loosening with use? It's crossed my mind but I haven't asked an expert.

quote:

Is this really to compensate for loosening with use?

yes

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
This has been my arguement all along about 9.3 DRs. Just as there is a correct weight for a 375 or 450/400 DR (not 10.5#'s!) I feel that the perfect weight for a 9.3 DR is 8 lbs, not 6-7. Merkel screwed the pooch when they dumped the 9.3 on the 20 ga frame and put it on the 28 ga frame ONLY. They should offer both.

I totally agree with the 8, to 8.5 pounds for a 9.3X74R double rifle. Like you, I do not like the new 141 Merkel 9.3, it is simply too light, IMO! I have a 140E merkel 9.3 and it weighs in at exactly 8.4 lbs empty, and ballances perfectly for me. The addtion of a Pachmeyr decellarator recoil pad made it perfect. The rifle settles down well for me, and and swings without the wavey effectr of a rifle that is too light. Besides that, the 9.3X74R double has a lot more recoil than most think, and the weight makes the rifle very pleasent carry all day and to shoot. That little rifle makes double taps on running hogs with monotonous regularity.

This little rifle is 5 or 6 yrs old, and is still tight, but took about a yr of shooting to loosen up! It has become my favorite double for everything from jackrabbit, to Eland, and buffalo are in trouble if i get my sights on another one!

Wanna trade?

We have loosened up double rifle actions for several of our clients. I have seen how this is done and it is not complicated. But I cannot discribe to you how to do this. For sure it is not beating on the lugs with a hammer, as one of our clients had done. I take my clients' rifles to BRILEY and let them do the work. They loosen new highend shotguns for target shooters all the time. Not rocket science, but you need to know where to file and how many strokes to make with the file!