If my Merkel puts 2 lefts and 2 rights into less than an inch and spot on at 50 meters, then all I have to do to get the mythical parallel to infinity groups for right and left barrels is only this:

1) Slow down the ammo a small amount:
This will raise and separate the POI's of the two barrels from being perfectly superimposed to being "perfectly spread apart," left to the left and up, and right to the right and up, equally.

2) Raise the front sight or lower the rear sight a very small amount, or both by an even smaller amount each:
This will bring the equally spread groups back down to zero elevation at desired range.

Please do not bad mouth your SxS double that shoots both barrels to the same POI at desired range, and in a small group. That rifle has been perfectly regulated. You just have a discrepancy between your ammo, sights, and expectations ... or understanding.

I am trying to be provocative here guys.
Let me have it if there is any flaw in my thinking on this.

Aw RIP, whaddaya wanna do that for?

I spent last weekend working up in a .500/.465 for a friend's elephant hunt and did just that. 87 RL 15 went into .8 inch at 50, but one pair crossed slightly, so I backed off .5 grain. Difference in elevation doesn't amount to much at 50.

You're aware that differences in temp can make that much difference anyway.

Most rifles play by the rules, but some don't. I remember a couple that increasing velocity 100+ fps did not change barrel spread at all.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Good educated guess Rip, load some up, shoot them, and let us know the results.

Curses! Foiled again! Just trying to get some respect for a Merkel 470 NE that puts a right and a left into the same hole at 50 meters. I see it is hopeless!

George Hoffman Memorial Load: H4831 of 108 to 110 grains, depending on the bullet, and no filler.

Well it looks like you have a lot of work to do. You have to get that #2 left bbl back in the group.
My turn to stir the pot. Actualey great groop and good shooting.
Bill

RIP:

Why didn't you just say so? Damned accurate.
-------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Bill,
I think the load was O.K. and the rifle wants to shoot. It is obviously a problem with my eyes or my tremor. Thanks for the helpful encouragement. A beta blocker and new spectacles may be all I need when trying the new loads to get them shooting parallel to infinity ... if only the weather cooperates and the temperature and barometric pressure don't fluctuate too much. Heaven help me if the wind blows too variably.

400,
You don't have to be so nice about it. I just like getting out of the big bore trailer park and visiting an upscale double rifle forum now and then for thrills. Thanks.

I think RIP is also taunting us - it seems he has some of the original Jack Carter TBSH's!

That is one good shooting double.

Jim,
Only two boxes left.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

A beta blocker and new spectacles may be all I need when trying the new loads to get them shooting parallel to infinity ...

You know the best thing about having a first name that starts with DR. Is that the drug store is always open...

My wife has the same first initials. I should know, I just got done paying for them two little ole letters about 6 years ago..

You know how that works right? There's our money and her money but no my money, as far as I can tell.

That marital money thing is just about as simple as getting a double to shoot parallel to infinity.

As soon as I get it figured out I'll give you a call.

Oh boy! Now we have a soap opera going too!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If my Merkel puts 2 lefts and 2 rights into less than an inch and spot on at 50 meters, then all I have to do to get the mythical parallel to infinity groups for right and left barrels is only this:

1) Slow down the ammo a small amount:
This will raise and separate the POI's of the two barrels from being perfectly superimposed to being "perfectly spread apart," left to the left and up, and right to the right and up, equally.

2) Raise the front sight or lower the rear sight a very small amount, or both by an even smaller amount each:
This will bring the equally spread groups back down to zero elevation at desired range.

Please do not bad mouth your SxS double that shoots both barrels to the same POI at desired range, and in a small group. That rifle has been perfectly regulated. You just have a discrepancy between your ammo, sights, and expectations ... or understanding.

I am trying to be provocative here guys.
Let me have it if there is any flaw in my thinking on this.

NO! I don't think there is any flaw here! You have the SARCASM, down pat! However the load is just about perfect, with the lft slightly on the left, and the right slightly on the right! SEE! You did it, without even knowing you did!

VERY GOOD LOAD, especially in a 470NE double!

OK,
I am confused. Is the above info correct or are you pulling my leg. If the groups are close at 50 you need to slow things down for them to work @ 100?
Stupid question yes but remember I live in Arkansas!

Their are more tongues in more cheeks around here than Carter has little liver pills!




I also think that RIP has found a good starter load.

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
OK,
I am confused. Is the above info correct or are you pulling my leg. If the groups are close at 50 you need to slow things down for them to work @ 100?
Stupid question yes but remember I live in Arkansas!

The first thing to do is shoot it at 100 and see what you have.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
OK,
I am confused. Is the above info correct or are you pulling my leg. If the groups are close at 50 you need to slow things down for them to work @ 100?
Stupid question yes but remember I live in Arkansas!

Roscoe,
If the double is putting both barrels into the same hole at 50 meters, then at 100 meters it will have spread to two groups side-by-side with the same distance between as the two holes of the double rifle muzzles.

In effect it will look like this at 100 meters:


RR LL


whereas the "parallel to infinity" double will look like this:


LL RR


Same size goups and spreads with both doubles, just mirror image.

So fom zero to 100 meters, the one that crosses at exactly 50 meters will have better accuracy anywhere between zero and 100 meters, and the same accuracy at zero meters and at exactly 100 meters.

No shit.

Again, both of these perfectly regulated doubles have the same regulation. It is just that the crossing double is shooting slightly faster bullets, and is sighted slightly different regarding elevation.

No shit.

It is true that if you are stuck with only one velocity of factory ammo, and don't handload, then the regulation plus sighting alignment must match that ammo to produce the desired "pattern" (ouch) I mean grouping, on the target.

This is getting pretty infinitesimal when we insist on "parallel to infinity."

Hell, no factory double rifle ammo has a small enough standard deviation of velocity to even dream of "parallel to infinity."

That is only accomplished with careful handloads. If I slow my loads down just right, they shoot parallel and they shoot a little higher with no change to the sights. This is better for long range trajectory, since the velocity loss is so miniscule. It just requires knowing the trajectory elevation change to infinity.

Thus with a double that crosses at 50 meters with standard full velocity load, you are most accurate anywhere between zero and 100 meters.

Then you can whip out a pointy bullet load with a GSC bullet of same weight that you have tuned to shoot parallel and a little higher in the same rifle.

Then your double rifle has become an AFRICAN SHEEP RIFLE ...

But don't forget the beta blocker and the new spectacles.

Stay tuned for a Butch Searcy produced 450/395 NE 3-1/4" loaded with GSC FN/HV/SP ...
with parallel-to-infinity groups with the SP and HV and crossing-at-50-meter groups with a different set of FN and HV loads, all with the same bullet weight.

Sumbuddy help Roscoe understand!
What don't you understand Roscoe?
Am I not making sense?
Forget the 450/395 NE 3.25" Thin Rim for now, coming soon.
Anything besides that bothering you?

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:

Roscoe, don't worry about it, RIP, is half funning you, and the other half is real, and you will have to be here a while before you can tell the difference! All you need to know is if your bullets from both barrels are hitting the same hole, and a little low, simply lower the powder load a tiny amouth till the shots spread LL, and RR in a composit e group and a little higher, and it is perfect. All RIP is saying if they all hit the same hole at 50 yds, ths means they are corssing at 50 yds, but will be no wider that the distance between the barrels at 100 yds. I doubt you will get that close with any factory ammo, and only with hand loads with great care in loading. It is not a worry, unless you want to shoot 200 or 300 yds, and hit anything, with your double. Most of your shooting with irons will be within 100 yds anyway. If you have mounted a scope on your double then the finer load is needed! My advice is to simply enjoy shooting, and hunting with you double and do the experimenting later.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Sumbuddy help Roscoe understand!
What don't you understand Roscoe?
Am I not making sense?
Forget the 450/395 NE 3.25" Thin Rim for now, coming soon.
Anything besides that bothering you?

Can you draw me a picture?

Hey RIP!

Those bullets will never see 100 yards, cause if they are "Crossing" they'll hit one another and fall to the ground........

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Hey RIP!

Those bullets will never see 100 yards, cause if they are "Crossing" they'll hit one another and fall to the ground.......

I had that problem with the Noram ammo...switch to the Federal and you should be OK....I guess that means that the Federal ammo is slower right? I think I am starting to understand.

You Got it!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
You Got it!

Thanks bubba!

Roscoe,
Let's keep it simple, and stick to plane geometry only, for starters. Look down at the trajectories of the rifles across the flat earth as if you were an angel in heaven, floating on a cloud.

If Euclid had a double rifle in ancient Greece, he would have made this one of his theorems of geometry. A formally stated proof with diagrams of this:

"One may have two identical double rifles, one a parallel-to-infinity shooter, and the other a crossing-at-33-cubits shooter, and the only difference between the two rifles is the velocity of the bullet."

If you can grasp this, we may proceed to the third dimension. Reality is just an extension of this undeniable truth.

Also, Jim, give us a break on that idea about bullets colliding at 50 meters from a right and a left. Everybody knows that can only happen with a truly simultaneous double-discharge.

quote:

If Euclid had a double rifle

RIP

Are we talking about my wife again?

She has one them I think? But she says I don't know how to find it....

quote:

Everybody knows that can only happen with a truly simultaneous double-discharge.

You mean, that there are rifles out there that let you shoot one barrel at a time??!!!!!

Is that just with Greek doubles?

Where do you get a Euclid double? And can you shoot factory ammo in them or do you have to shoot those cubits? Do cubits come in flat nosed solids?

Man, RIP, a whole new world!

Surestrike-

RIP said something about it having something to do with the diagram. Might want to check there, unless she doesn't use a diagram.

Surestrike,
Is she named Euclidia? That is the name of my Merkel now. This thread has been good for something. Thanks for the inspiration.

Jim,
And furthermore, the odds on a truly simultaneous double-discharge, even with an ancient Greek double rifle, are infinitesimally small. Just like the odds on a truly parallel-to-infinity double rifle pattern/group: next to zero. Check this double barrel test fire:

quote:

Surestrike,
Is she named Euclidia?

RIP,

It's Dr. Euclidia..

Glad I could help.

Surestrike,
"Doctor Euclidia Merkel the 470 Nitro" she is then. She is a bull shooter. Tell your wife she has a double rifle named for her.

I don’t see the bullets crossing in the target posted. When you draw a line through the center of the group they seem to be on the right side. I still say shoot it at 100 and see what you have. I wouldn’t change anything till then. Fore all practical purposes who cares if they cross at 100 and you still have a 2†group. That is better than most people can shoot off sticks or offhand at 100.
Just curious why are we seeing a group dated 05/30/05? Haven’t you shot a good group since then?
Bill

Bill,
I always shoot a good group when I unlimber Euclidia. This old group served an illustrative purpose.

Since then Euclidia has been back to The Merkel Gunsmith of GSI in Trussville, Alabama for a lube job, and she says she feels good all over now, inside and out, freshly lubricated and ready for anything.

Surestrike,
Don't tell your wife I said that, lest she think her namesake a shameless hussy.

I think she may have gone beyond Trussvulle...

Spotted a clip of her on "Doubles Gone Wild". It is pretty graphic, but prepare yourself - scenes of her WILLINGLY taking factory ammunition into her chambers, all kinds, even S&B!

Sorry.

But hey, maybe in 9 months or so you'll be the proud father of a new howdah! Just hope it's English or German...

Referring back to your first post. I say you need to shoot it at 100 yards or meters and maybe 150 or 200 to see what you have. Until you have data to work with (targets with holes in them) all you have is theory and conjuncture. While this is fun to through out there on the forum and see what kind of responses you get. I agree it does pass the time and stirs the pot.

Bill

quote:

Surestrike,
Don't tell your wife I said that, lest she think her namesake a shameless hussy.

I can only wish that it was true..

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
Referring back to your first post. I say you need to shoot it at 100 yards or meters and maybe 150 or 200 to see what you have. Until you have data to work with (targets with holes in them) all you have is theory and conjuncture. While this is fun to through out there on the forum and see what kind of responses you get. I agree it does pass the time and stirs the pot.

Bill

Bill,
I have shot it at 300 yards and indeed it crosses a bit. I got it on paper at 300 yards, and noted the Kentucky Windage and Tennessee Elevation needed.

I can hit darn close to the center of an 18" gong routinely at 300 yards with each barrel of Euclidia the 470 NE. The square notch and post of the Merkel are well adapted to this Elmer Keith style shooting: Just like Elmer did with his sixguns. Of course Euclidia is really best at zero to 100 yards.

I stand on all statements made here. It is the truth and actually not potstirring at all. Just the facts, humorously introduced to get your attention.

Double rifle "A" that shoots both barrels into one hole at 50 meters and with POI right on POA, well, that is a well regulated rifle, and it will shoot "parallel to infinity" merely by loading the cartridges to slower velocity.

Double rifle "B" that shoots parallel to infinity, may be identical in the final results of the barrel alignment produced by the regulation.

"A" and "B" may be identical twins except for the velocity of the loads used and the heights of front or rear sight.

Speed up the loads in "B" and it will cross at 50 meters too, and the the POI will be a little lower.

All you guys with parallell-to-infinity doubles can easily fix them to cross at 50 meters by loading your ammo a little faster and shortening the height of your front sight by a hair.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
Referring back to your first post. I say you need to shoot it at 100 yards or meters and maybe 150 or 200 to see what you have. Until you have data to work with (targets with holes in them) all you have is theory and conjuncture. While this is fun to through out there on the forum and see what kind of responses you get. I agree it does pass the time and stirs the pot.

Bill

Bill,
I have shot it at 300 yards and indeed it crosses a bit. I got it on paper at 300 yards, and noted the Kentucky Windage and Tennessee Elevation needed.

I can hit darn close to the center of an 18" gong routinely at 300 yards with each barrel of Euclidia the 470 NE. The square notch and post of the Merkel are well adapted to this Elmer Keith style shooting: Just like Elmer did with his sixguns. Of course Euclidia is really best at zero to 100 yards.

I stand on all statements made here. It is the truth and actually not potstirring at all. Just the facts, humorously introduced to get your attention.

Double rifle "A" that shoots both barrels into one hole at 50 meters and with POI right on POA, well, that is a well regulated rifle, and it will shoot "parallel to infinity" merely by loading the cartridges to slower velocity.

Double rifle "B" that shoots parallel to infinity, may be identical in the final results of the barrel alignment produced by the regulation.

"A" and "B" may be identical twins except for the velocity of the loads used and the heights of front or rear sight.

Speed up the loads in "B" and it will cross at 50 meters too, and the the POI will be a little lower.

All you guys with parallell-to-infinity doubles can easily fix them to cross at 50 meters by loading your ammo a little faster and shortening the height of your front sight by a hair.

Well said RIP!

MacD37,
I know you understand exactly!
Thanks.

Some of these other guys need to study the situation a little harder.