I am looking at buying this Holland & Holland Royal ejector rifle, but I would like to draw on the experience and opinions of these boards for advice.
The rifle was built in 1913, originally the length of pull was 15”3/8 which has since been trimmed to a more civilized length, which I have not measured but fits me well.
Original weight was 10lb 10 oz, with 26” barrels in .500/465 3”1/4. One nice detail, the locks are signed by Joseph Brazier Ashes, who was described as "a very excellent best Lock Filer" by Wesley Richards. www.josephbrazier.com . It is tight and on face, the bore and rifling are great, though it is not easy to see in the pictures. There is also a small ivory container in the case that I do not know the purpose of, as well a spare pair of firing pins stowed in the pistol grip.
I must say that the photos I took of the rifle do not really do it justice, they are particularly unflattering and have managed to enhance the tiniest blemishes, making the general tone of the gun look quite a bit duller than it actually is in person. It was a cheap, old digital camera and the lighting was not good. And I am obviously not much of a photographer.
The rifle is not flawless though it is considerably nicer than it appears in the photos. So without further ado here are the pics:

Interesting it doesn't have Holland Royal on the underside of the action. Maybe someone could say if this was the case with early Holland's.


Nice looking gun. Long Strap over comb is good - and nice.

Check the wood on the stock at the centre rear of the lock plates - had a habit of cracking here, sometimes just very faint cracks.

Will add more later.

.

There is another 'Royal' on the New York Holland & Holland webite that also does not have the inscription on the underside, it is also early vintage, 1897.

http://www.hollandandholland.c...ns/9989898919229.htm

I wonder?

It's not the first one I have seen like that.

An exact same gun over here has no "Royal", just the charge like your one.

I think early Royal's didn't always have it - I asked in case someone knew definatively.

.

Looks nice to me. Find out how it shoots.

EXPRESS


Did you get my PM ?


.

Wow! What a beautiful rifle!!!!

As near as I can tell an extractor of this quality, condition, and calibre would go 50-60k. A ejector of this quality, condition, and calibre would go 60-75k. Have a look:
http://www.gunsinternational.c...er=Price&start_row=1

Brett

I did not mention that is is an ejector.
Thanks for the replies, keep it coming!
Thanks.

I saw it has a split between the barrels so guessed it was an Ejector.

Gun case
- is it original ?
- where is the gun / load data label on the lid
- most H&H's had them.

To a serious British collector any alteration, like the shortening of the stock, might detract from the value. To anyone that intends on using the gun, alteration of the stock to fit the shooter makes a lot of sense and, in the USA, most people would not be put off by it at all.

Note the hidden third bight and long top tang strap - nice touches.

That looks like a very nice gun. The ivory box and the pistol grip are used to store little things like extra firing pins, springs, and sights.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I saw it has a split between the barrels so guessed it was an Ejector.

+1, but covering my bases.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
To a serious British collector any alteration, like the shortening of the stock, might detract from the value. To anyone that intends on using the gun, alteration of the stock to fit the shooter makes a lot of sense and, in the USA, most people would not be put off by it at all.

Note the hidden third bight and long top tang strap - nice touches.

That looks like a very nice gun. The ivory box and the pistol grip are used to store little things like extra firing pins, springs, and sights.

I disagree in regards to THIS alteration to the stock. If H&H had purchased the gun for resale, to sell it they may have had to shorten the stock. It is how it is done that is important.

"Note the hidden third bight and long top tang strap - nice touches."
IMHO, that is standard on this level of gun / calibre by THIS maker.
H&H ae known for hidden thrid bites. The strap might be normal length
if the customer who ordered it didn't want it.

The fact that the spare firing pins are still in the grip to me says a lot.

Agreed, nice gun.

quote:

The fact that the spare firing pins are still in the grip to me says a lot.

Agreed, nice gun.

500N, can you elaborate on what you mean by that? I can only guess that is means there has never been any need to replace them, that it has been well maintained? Or is there something specific that it can indicate?

Just that "all the bits and pieces" have stayed together with the rifle.

It's a "nice to have" as opposed to a definite requirement but shows someone looked after everything.

People who don't look after their gear tend to mis place things like this IMHO.


Bore condition / overall condition of the rifle is more important in the overall scheme of things but it's just another "tick" for the gun.

The hood is missing from the front sight.

Is it in the case ?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

"Note the hidden third bight and long top tang strap - nice touches."
IMHO, that is standard on this level of gun / calibre by THIS maker.
H&H ae known for hidden thrid bites. The strap might be normal length
if the customer who ordered it didn't want it.

The fact that the spare firing pins are still in the grip to me says a lot.

Agreed, nice gun.

Yes, advertised as "standard" for the Express Double-Barreled High Velocity Cordite Rifles are the long strap, special treble grip, and the "pistol grip with cap which contains a box for holding extra sights, etc."

Still, nice touches.

For circa 1913 info on the rifle look at page 41-43 in the 1910 catalog:

Reprint of 1910 H&H Catalog

Sharp observation. I don't think it was there. I'll have to ask. Thanks, I would not have noticed, also because I hate them!

quote:

Originally posted by EXPRESS:
Sharp observation. I don't think it was there. I'll have to ask. Thanks, I would not have noticed, also because I hate them!

It comes from buying guns like this. Attention to detail is everything at this level.


So do I (hate them) but they are part of the gun and look good in the case
as well as protect the front sight from being damaged.

.

The gun barrels were obviously stored wet at one stage by the looks of the light pitting on the face / and where the proof marks are.


Just check that the barrels haven't been refinished / reblued.


IMHO, the proof marks are very sharp - does anyone else think the gun hasn't done a huge amount of work (although a closer inspection
of the bores etc is needed).

Just my HO.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
does anyone else think the gun hasn't done a huge amount of work

+1 That was my general thought. As stated the bores need a good hard look.

Brett

A little bit off topic but I notice that the .465 royal in the new guns section in the New York gunroom has been significantly reduced in price, handled that exact rifle Oct last year and the price was $171,900 and is now retailing for $155,000, a substantial drop.

Very nice looking and the bore has little or no "frosting" or erosion.

Strongly suggest you call Patrick Murphy, in charge of the gunroom at H&H in London, and order a copy of the gunbook notes. That will tell you a lot, including to whom they sold it. See if the case has those initials on it and then double check the case label to be certain it is of the period (H&H regularly changed labels depending on prizes they won and what royal warrants they held).

Patrick may have a hood of the period that will fit the front sight if you need it.

The ivory bottle is for the strikers (firing pins) that you found in the grip cap.

My H&H 500/450 dates to 1904. It does not have the word "Royal" anywhere on it, nor is it so identified in the gunbook notes. But I asked and was assured it is a "Royal."

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by choppa:
A little bit off topic but I notice that the .465 royal in the new guns section in the New York gunroom has been significantly reduced in price, handled that exact rifle Oct last year and the price was $171,900 and is now retailing for $155,000, a substantial drop.

Not a drop in price at all. Since the guns are made in England they are priced based on the pound. The New York showroom can't change prices every day but I've noticed they do make adjustments from time to time to account for the changing trends in exchange rates.

1 GBP cost $1.688 in Nov 2009
1 GBP only cost about $1.545 this month

If you do the math then it's pretty close.

$171,900/$1.688 per GBP = 101,836 GBP
$155,000/$1.545 per GBP = 100,324 GBP

Well folks, I did take the plunge and bought this rifle.

On Easter sunday I was able to take it out and christen it with a spot and stalk boar hunt, which I enjoyed very much.

I will try to post some pictures of it in more flattering light.

The rifle is just wonderful and I'm not particularly worried about it's resale value, because I hope to keep it and pass it down to my son one day.

quote:

Originally posted by EXPRESS:
Well folks, I did take the plunge and bought this rifle.

On Easter sunday I was able to take it out and christen it with a spot and stalk boar hunt, which I enjoyed very much.

I will try to post some pictures of it in more flattering light.

The rifle is just wonderful and I'm not particularly worried about it's resale value, because I hope to keep it and pass it down to my son one day.

Congrats on your purchase and I hope to see pictures of your hunting results down the road. The caliber is a good one, comparable to .470 or .450 NE. Your son will be very lucky to own that gun someday. Good hunting.

EXPRESS,

You are one very lucky man. I am envious!

465H&H

Express.

Well done on the purchase.

quote:

originally the length of pull was 15”3/8 which has since been trimmed to a more civilized length

Very nice rifle and congrats on the purchase! But "MORE CIVILIZED LENGTH"? I'm a 15.5" LOP!!

EXPRESS,
Congrats on the purchase of your H&H. I have one very similar, circa 1908, that
also does not say Royal on the belly, only the caliber, case length & charge.



Mine, like your new one, is in stellar condition & I have been able to take
two nice elephant bulls (Tanzania & Namibia) with it. As many have stated,
the 500/465 is essentially a ballistic twin to the 450's & 470 NE. Very
good caliber for elephant, buff, hippo,...?
Don't be afraid to take it out hunting, that is what they were made for.

If you don't already have "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme
Wright, then I would try to pick-up a copy, very informative for reloading.

Well done on your purchase, hope your son gets to use it someday as well!

Jim

Awesome rifle & great patience & peseverance - 3 years!

Fantastic rifle; enjoy!

A good laser-welder can make the pitting go away quite easily.

Hello express:

That is a very lovely rifle, congratulations.

very good sound advice from new-guy, except I will make darn sure the guy knew what he was doing and have done it for quite a while. Also would want to see some of the work that he has done etc, before I hand this baby over to him.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:


A good laser-welder can make the pitting go away quite easily.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Jungleboy:
EXPRESS,
Congrats on the purchase of your H&H. I have one very similar, circa 1908, that
also does not say Royal on the belly, only the caliber, case length & charge.



Mine, like your new one, is in stellar condition & I have been able to take
two nice elephant bulls (Tanzania & Namibia) with it. As many have stated,
the 500/465 is essentially a ballistic twin to the 450's & 470 NE. Very
good caliber for elephant, buff, hippo,...?
Don't be afraid to take it out hunting, that is what they were made for.

If you don't already have "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme
Wright, then I would try to pick-up a copy, very informative for reloading.

Well done on your purchase, hope your son gets to use it someday as well!

Jim

Nice rifle.I wonder who did the engraving on it?