Has anyone had experience with Varget in a nfb load in their BPE doubles? I've always used IMR 4198 at a 40% ratio. However, I saw an article wherein the owner of a 450-400 3 1/4 was using 55 grains of Varget with cast bullets and great success. I have never seen any load data on Varget so wanted to know. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
Has anyone had experience with Varget in a nfb load in their BPE doubles? I've always used IMR 4198 at a 40% ratio. However, I saw an article wherein the owner of a 450-400 3 1/4 was using 55 grains of Varget with cast bullets and great success. I have never seen any load data on Varget so wanted to know. Thanks

Graeme Wright has plenty of Varget loads listed in the “Nitro for Black” section of his book “Shooting the British Double Rifle” Volume III.
.577 3”, .500 3”, .500/.450 3 1/4”, .450 3 1/4” Black Powder Express are all listed.
Chapter 12 even has published pressure tests of such loads.
Now he does not have specific data for the .450/.400 3 1/4”, but IMO one can easily (& safely) interpulate.
I have used Varget in my .577 3” BPE and it worked as advertized.
- Mike

Thanks Redstone. I'll pull out my copy.

Black powder "explodes", contained or in the open air, while smokeless "burns"...very quickly when contained and MUCH slower when not...so rifles needed to contain an exploding product rather than a "slower" burning product...you probably already know this.

By knowing the pressure limit of your rifle and the case volume of your cartridge you can use ANY interior ballistics program to calculate load parameters for MANY powders.

WAY back in those days powder types were slim pickin's, they used what they had...I would bet my favorite rifle that if the powders available today were available then they would have thrown black powder in the ocean because you can't even use it to start a BBQ.

Your case has just slightly less case volume than the 45-125 Winchester Express, ≈135 G...WEIGH IT TO BE SURE...so you can use that smokeless data dropping 15-25% for safety and "slowly work up" and ALSO CHECKING RELOADING DATA already available for your case AND NOT GOING OVER THE PRESSURE LIMITS FOR YOUR RIFLE. You also have to consider too LOW a powder volume is almost as bad as too HIGH a volume in large cases...so stay above 80-85% by volume.

There is loading data available on line but you have to dig it out...and Barnes has data for the 3", 0.408 dia smaller version.

I think going from BP to smokeless in a BP gun falls into that neither fish nor fowl category...blasphemy to some..."WHY" to others, but one way to keep an old toy running with the rest of the pack.

We do it in 45-70 to 45-120 cases don't we????...and in other old timey originally BP cartridges...why not for the 450 Express "three and a quarter" Nitro Express.

I ran a 135 gr volume case and 405 gr bullets through a couple of programs keeping the pressures below 29 KPSI the same for my BP and other low pressure rifles and hit 8 good powders from 80-100% density and velos from 1900 - 2200 fs...H1000 produces a 100% density load at 2245 fs and ≈4500 #ft in QL...I would check that out somewhere else before going there as QL has proven notorious for being squirrely since I've been using it...(almost since the beginning)

Yours being a double should gave the pressure data stamped/engraved? on the barrels...SAAMI has pressure data for the 450-400 3 1/4" N.E...safety dictates safety...even going to 37 KPSI, 85% of SAAMI puts you in the "slap the stuffing outta the shooter" category with 500 gr or above bullet weights and a "light double" depending on the shooters recoil tolerance.

Good Luck and Good Hunting

Sam has done work on lead cast bullets with light practice loads using Varget and lighter bullets.

I tried Varget and 340 gr bullets in my 470. I have not developed a regulating load

Please do not consider these observations on NONAGONAGIN’s post a throwdown and cause for a flame war. Just my “enhancements” to the commentary.

1)True, Black powder is classified as an explosive by DOT, ATF&E, etc. However it needs to be clarified that black powder “deflagrates” rather than “detonates” (subsonic wave vs supersonic wave at the molecular level) even when confined in a firearm cartridge. One only has to look at the test pressure curves from a piezo transducer pressure test of black powder in a firearm to see that the “explosion” is in fact a measurable pressure rise process not all that different from smokeless powders.

2) Calc results for a ~400 grain bullet in a .450/.400 3” are not applicable to a .450/.400 3 1/4” Black Powder Express. It was a good data point using max of 29,000PSI for a Nitro for Black load in an old Black Powder Express.
BTW: the later mentioned SAAMI 37K PSI is for a Full Nitro & would likely damage or destroy a true Black Powder Express, especially risky if damascus barrels.

3) It is NOT the case that all guns/rifles will show proof pressures marked on the barrel flats or elsewhere. In fact Proof in England in the black powder era only shows the marks that the firearm passed proof, and what gauge/bore or inch diameter the barrels were at proof.
Even after Cordite/smokeless the British rifle proof marks do not indicate max pressure in CUP, PSI, or any other standard.
What is varifiable is the typical operating pressures (in British Tons) of standard ammo of the day, that was regularly published. “Most not all” Black Powder ammunition in the BP Express days was about max of 10 Tons pressure in British Tons and using the “British” Copper Crusher method where the crusher was located at the cartridge head and not on the case wall as is US pactice.


All this be as it may, the Graeme Wright book is a great source of information for those wanting to develop “Nitro for Black” loads & learn about the BPE and Nitro Express rifles and cartridges. Most especially with double rifles it is not all about what powder or pressure a “calc” program suggests.
- Mike

ALL good information and WHY I kept stressing SAFETY and finding out WHAT the rifle is pressured at. As usual NO ONE can write down ALL the cockroaches inherent in reloading.

Take a look at the pressure SAAMI has for 450-400 3 1/2"...and understand there are a TON of caveats that goes along with EVERY cartridge/rifle. It is up to the individual to understand this IF they are going to muck about with changing ANY of the parameters...Class 101 for reloaders...READ AND HEED ALL the fine print in ALL reloading manuals....first thing they say is DON'T CHANGE COMPONENTS without first reducing the load.

Long tons can be converted to PSI and somewhat to CUP...BUT...there again...ALWAYS CAVEATS AND NYET-NYETS...YOU want to know???look it up, it's WAY to easy to put information on the net that is total BS...one of the reason I DON'T POST ACTUAL RELOADING DATA...just observations learned over almost 70 years of doing this game. AGAIN...No one can reduce that amount of knowledge/understanding to a few sentences.

Part of the information I posited came from QL, part from other sources and part from extrapolation and mathematics. The most dangerous part of this internet thing is YOU NEVER KNOW JUST HOW MUCH WHOEVER YOU ARE TALKING TO REALLY UNDERSTANDS...and too often egos are talking rather than science.

On that note, I wouldn't use Varget in that cartridge case anyway as there are much better powders to use designed especially for light loads in large cases, but that's just me...just like I don't use Blue Dot where many others do.

I DIDN'T mention the 450-400 3" as it's a different animal anyway and just muddies up the waters.

My suggestion is to converse directly with the questioner, that way you, the expert, can help the questioner and develop a Q/A beneficial to him...THEN post the information about the double's parameters AND the cartridge for ALL to read and understand.

That way there will be NO confusion that usually goes on here on AR.

I've been wildcatting, BP shooting and most of the other sporting applications related to shooting and I GUARANTEE...BEFORE I ever start load development for ANY cartridge I research the HE** out of it using multiple sources...THEN I develop my loads.

My first "real" rifle back in high school was a Win 94 30-30 that soon became a 30 Lever-power and I used BOTH smokeless and Black...BUT...followed the advice of a mentor who was also a gunsmith/competitor. Nowadays we have chronos, software programs and the 'net that can give us guidelines on how to do things and keep our heads screwed on right...or unscrewed if listening to the wrong person.

Good Hunting