Hi All,Just wanted to know your opinion of under & over doubles? I was looking at one of the USA web sites and saw a Verney-Carron under & over double in 450-400 which i thought was quite nice and was thinking of getting a new toy! What are the pro's and con's of these and does anyone out there own one?cheers

I've shot this 450/400 a few times with customers, and it's really a matter of personal prefrence. Although most in the US think sxs when they think of big doubles, the o/u is certainly practical as well.



There's the argument about the barrel travel when opening and loading, but if a guy is well versed with his o/u shotgun, the o/u rifle should be an easy transition... I would think.

The O/U is exquisitely elegant; but for me .375 H&H Fl Mag is the largest
I'd consider in that design. 9.3x74R and smaller, no doubt I lean toward O/U.
YOU may decide you prefer O/U in every caliber. Have your fun!!!

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:


.

If I were to pick an O/U double rifle chambered for a cartridge bigger than 375 Fl Mag the above rifle would absolutely be my pick!

Hey Mac,is there an issue i don't know about with the verney carron's that would make them unsuitable in 450-400?

Have played a little bit with a Zoli 450/400. Loved it. Handeled just like my Browning citori- same single trigger, same safely.

A couple of my mates who were big into shotgun shooting and bird hunting before they got into dangerous game hunting have gone for O/U rifles with the same trigger and saely as their usual shotguns- good plan and the route I would have gone if I had been able to get what I wanted when I wanted.

Howver, not exactly 'dissatisfied' with the Krieghoff and have sold the browning and bought 20g barrels for my Krieghoff for cheap and easy practice on moving targets

I personally find a U/O Shot Gun a better handling weapon for hunting, and thus would strongly consider this merit for any double rifle.

I don't believe the O/U has any faults compared to a sxs the action does have to open wider to reload so maybe a bit slower on the reload but practice can fix a lot of things. I'm just a stickler on continuity (safeties the same, single trigger or double trigger's, etc.) if you already have some O/U's get another in 450/400. If you have a sxs or two and you want a O/U and your sxs has two triggers I'd make sure the O/U had two triggers.

I lurk most of the time, but just as the OP, I ran across a couple O/U doubles that piqued my interest and came here to gather some knowledge. Funny thing is this thread was at the top of the forum. Fate or Omen.

how are some of the makers for o/u and whats the price ranges?

I have a Tikka 512 SD in 9.3x74R. I also have two other barrel sets (12 ga/7x57R) and 12 ga/12ga.). I love the gun!



Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
how are some of the makers for o/u and whats the price ranges?

The Verney Carron O/U 450-400 goes for about $7K with ejectors. Looks like a lot of rifle to me for the money. Reasonably light and easy to carry but pushing a 400 grain bullet at good speed. There is an example on Kebco's web site. As much as I love the 9,3x74R the 450/400 might be the perfect caliber for large North America game.

Personal thoughts are it is a good choice for the one double guy. But I am of the school that believes all doubles a hunter owns should be the same basic design so no mistakes are made in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by zhaba:
Hey Mac,is there an issue i don't know about with the verney carron's that would make them unsuitable in 450-400?

zhaba, I have zero experience with the V-C rifles, but what my comment in this thread was all about is If I wanted an O/U double rifle in a dangerous game cartridge, which I do not, it would be the HEYM pictured by NewGuy! My reason is that particular rifle has been chambered for some of the largest catridges of any double rifle of the Over Under style rifle. This particular rifle is weighted more properly for that type of cartridge than most O/U rifles. The action is very strong, and has multiple lock-ups with the underlump, and the kersner twin extentions for the cross bar. It has two triggers and a manual safety.

I'm not in the market for a danherous game O/U double rifle, and, in my opinion, there is a reason most O/U double rifle chamber no larger than the 9.3X74R, and most come with a single trigger, and auto safety. The reason is the O/U is not well suited for dangerous game hunting, by most double rifle users.

Basically most who like the O/U pattern consider these objections to the O/U pattern, single trigger, and auto safety in a DGR to be simply a personal thing. It is, but again, IMO, these objections are real. I own both types of double rifles, but my choice for a DGR is always a S/S double rifle with double triggers, manual safety, chambered for a flanged cartridge from 375FL Mag to 500NE. I can live with ejectors or extractors equally on a side by side, but absolutely insist on selective ejectors on an over Under double rifle.

................

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
how are some of the makers for o/u and whats the price ranges?

The Verney Carron O/U 450-400 goes for about $7K with ejectors. Looks like a lot of rifle to me for the money. Reasonably light and easy to carry but pushing a 400 grain bullet at good speed. There is an example on Kebco's web site. As much as I love the 9,3x74R the 450/400 might be the perfect caliber for large North America game.

Personal thoughts are it is a good choice for the one double guy. But I am of the school that believes all doubles a hunter owns should be the same basic design so no mistakes are made in the field.

The 450/400NE 3" is a fine cartridge for the world not just North America.

On the idea that all ones rifles should be the same to avoid mistakes in the field makes sense! However, IMO, that only applies to the features that can cause the mistake in the same type rifle. I find that the biggest problem is to employ features that may be a draw back on a DGR that may be used to shoot instinctively to stop a bite back in close quarters, or may cause a total out of service condition if they malfunction!

Example; I own rifles in both DGR, and Non DGR class, and they come in single shot falling block, break top, exposed hammer, hammerless, single triggers, double triggers, bolt action, rifle with scopes only, with both scope and irons, or irons only. Tang safeties, side safeties, auto safeties, and manual safeties, O/U, S/S, Simi auto, and a dozen other differences. I don't find any hindrance in the use of any of them, except where having a few doubles with single triggers, and Auto safeties. Those two items have caused me some mistakes on occasion so those two features are never on a DGR that I use. I do have two double rifles in small NON-DGR chammberings with auto safeties, and one with a single trigger. Most all my O/U shotguns are single selective triggers, and auto safeties. All my S/S shotguns have two triggers, and all have manual safeties, or exposed hammers, and no safety.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you have four rifles, and/or shotguns consistency across the board makes sense, but if you have 75 or 80 long guns, and rifles of many different types it is almost impossible to make them all consistent in features, and IMO not necessary

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

there is a reason most O/U double rifle chamber no larger than the 9.3X74R, and most come with a single trigger, and auto safety. The reason is the O/U is not well suited for dangerous game hunting, by most double rifle users.

................

I'm interested to know what actual experience do you have, hunting DG or other game with O/U doubles chambered for cartridges larger than 9.3 x 74R?

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

there is a reason most O/U double rifle chamber no larger than the 9.3X74R, and most come with a single trigger, and auto safety. The reason is the O/U is not well suited for dangerous game hunting, by most double rifle users.

................

I'm interested to know what actual experience do you have, hunting DG or other game with O/U doubles chambered for cartridges larger than 9.3 x 74R?

I'd be interested to know what makes you think anyone who considers them unsuitable for dangerous game would use one to hunt dangerous game when he had another choice?

I 'd be interested in knowing, as well, where you get off thinking I owe you any explanation about anything! It is quite clear that you have a dislike for me,and challenge me at every opportunity! That is your privilege, but, here and now, let me make something very clear to you! I will not acknowledge any post to, or about me posted by you in future. You may think anything you wish!

...................... No more contests!

Thanks All. Mac thank you for your opinion and thoughts all good in my books. The reason i looked at this rifle in the first place was it just pinged an intrest. I would love to own a double again after having a merkel 470NE but cost is a bit of an isssue. Also I had a look at a beretta u/o double.It felt and pointed realy well along with the fact I shot a custom ruger in 458 years ago that had been converted from a 20g and it was very accurate and quick pointing.For a rifle that will only get a few runs so to speak along with the fact I have someone intrested in purchasing my 404 jeffery thought it would be a great toy to play with,save some coin and take it to Moz for some plains game and a buff.Over all I will just keep dreaming for now I guess.cheers all

Mac,
My question to you was not intended to start a pissing match. You have been posting for years about the O/U's unsuitability for use on DG and I was merely wondering if your opinion was based on any actual field experiences.
You have typed many hundreds, and really probably thousands of words on various forums, describing how the O/U just doesn't cut it for hunting DG, and how the O/U design does not work well when chambered for the large DG cartridges.
Sooner or later somone is likely to ask how you formed that (very strong) opinion.
For some reason asking that question seems to have really struck a nerve with you, and as you don't wish to answer, I won't ask it again.
Have a nice day.

quote:

by MacD37

I'd be interested to know what makes you think anyone who considers them unsuitable for dangerous game would use one to hunt dangerous game when he had another choice?

5seventy,
I did answer you in the quote above!
.............Over and out!

I don't see anything wrong with O&U doubles and the drivel about them being slower to reload than a SxS is nonsense.

G'Day Phil what make is that 450-400? Looks like you had some fun with them? again i just like the look of them and think it would be a cool change in the gun safe

The rife is a Zoli 450/400 and is built on their rugged Z-gun frame.
It can be had with single trigger is desired but comes with the double trigger as standard on their big bores.

I have posted these photos on other threads but will do so again here



Unlike SxS doubles they can also be used at longer ranges

Phil, Was that last pic taken on the SE side of Kodiak near Olga Bay? It looks familiar..

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Unlike SxS doubles they can also be used at longer ranges

Phil

were this remark for fun, or do you really belive there is any difference in the two ?

I see no reason why you shouldent be abel to make a decent O/U DGR rifle, it is not for me as i dont like the height of the action expecially with heavy recoil, as to me it feels as it is harder to control when shot, but technially there is no reason why you couldent make one every bit as good as a S/S.

allthough to my eye they still dont have as gracefull lines as a proper S/S

but there is NO difference between the two regarding regulation of the barrels, hence the long range capabillity is the same

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

by MacD37

I'd be interested to know what makes you think anyone who considers them unsuitable for dangerous game would use one to hunt dangerous game when he had another choice?

5seventy,
I did answer you in the quote above!
.............Over and out!

Well you've lost me. I don't know who you think you're answering, but it's not me. You seem to be answering a question which I have never asked.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I don't see anything wrong with O&U doubles and the drivel about them being slower to reload than a SxS is nonsense.

I totally agree.
There is plenty said about all the supposed problems associated with the O/U double rifle, often by people who have little to no experience on the subject.
Those who do have experience know a different story.
That Zoli looks like it does the job!

A couple of the top PH's in Africa use O7U .470's and I know one has just ordered a spare set of 500/416 barrels for elephant hunting as well.

Yes, in an O7U I would insist on selective ejectors - but the only ones I have handled had that feature anyway. Certainly no slower to reload than my Krieghoff...Since I have put in the practice with the K gun I am getting to really like the double triggers but when I first got it, I could easily have lived with a single trigger and barrel selector like my shotgun...not that you have to have a single trigger on an O/U and a single trigger is an option for both the Krieghoff and Blaser I note...so some folk must like them

Phil: Damn that's a nice Sitka blacktail!

quote:

but there is NO difference between the two regarding regulation of the barrels, hence the long range capabillity is the same

Peterdk I was under the impression that some O/U double rifles have barrel adjustment capabilities, while I am not aware of S/S double rifles (other than Blaser) having that capability. This does give you some more flexibility in regulation of barrels.
Peter.

peter

blaser, baikal and a few other producers of like quality makes barrel systems that the client can regulate themself. i think most of these systems are rather ungainly and i am not sure of the value of them in regards to the shooting that takes place while hunting.

since it will cost you a low nominal fee to have JJ reregulate the rifle for you, if you deside to change load, i cant see the use for them at all, but i am old fasioned and have no need for jumping between loads, once i have a good load that works with the gun, i just shoot the gun enough for me to know how it shoots at different distances.

example:

9,3 = 286 grains
375 = 300 grains
410 = 400 grains

and on and on, this along with the 75% rule is in general enough for me.

i do like some of the belgium browning O/U DR as they are very sleek and well made rifles.

best

peter

quote:

blaser, baikal and a few other producers of like quality

OUCH!
Peter.

One thing a serious user of ANY rifle for DG must have is familiarity with their rifle. Since I also use O&U shotguns with double triggers the Zoli feels comfortable
You can see the similarity between it and my 1935's vintage Beretta S-2 12 ga and my Prandelli 28 ga.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

blaser, baikal and a few other producers of like quality

OUCH!
Peter.

sorry peter

i just couldent help myself

Aww geez Phil...here I was going to be all witty and post something about O/U double owners being the sort of men that would sleep in their underwear, then you have to show up and circumvent all my fun!

I'm sitting here right now looking at a Canadian dealer with a new Sabatti O/U 9.3x74R $2295. Same fellow has a Verney-Carron O/U 9.3x74R for $3695. Seems to me to be a pretty reasonably priced way into the double market, though lacking the cachet of a SxS (FWIW he also has a Sabatti SxS in 9.3x74R for $3399).

quote:

Originally posted by BigUglyMan:
Aww geez Phil...here I was going to be all witty and post something about O/U double owners being the sort of men that would sleep in their underwear, then you have to show up and circumvent all my fun!

.

Shoot, I've been known to sleep in all my clothes when I need to stay warm and will use any rifle that works - so you are not technically wrong.