shooting Trophy Bondeds (SPs and Solids) out of a Heym 88B Safari DR?!

(.450 N.E. 3 1/4)??!

Do you really believe an A-frame bullet woud be better?!

Schorsch:

No, I don't. I think the Woodleigh softs and solids are the proper choice. Again, the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw is a monolithic bullet and is not suitable for double rifles.

Look, I'll try to be diplomatic here, because I have no desire to offend you, but there are some basics here that I don't think you understand.

In your original post on the other string, you said you wanted "strong" .450 loads with monolithic bullets. To do that, you need a strong action to take the excess pressures and a barrel type that monolithic bullets won't damage. In other words you want a bolt action .458 Lott. You'll have lots of action strength and plenty barrel wall thickness.

What you bought is a Heym .450 3 1/4" NE double rifle. Double rifles are drop-down barrel actions. No matter what kind of steel you make them out of, they're weak, because the design is weak. All of the "improving" in terms of ballistics that a double rifle action will stand was done during the conversion from black to smokeless a century ago. The British standardized the original Nitro Expresses at the highest pressures that were prudent for a double rifle action. In fact, the .450 3 1/4" NE had the highest pressure, 17 tons, of all the large bore flanged nitro expresses. Today, nothing has changed. New doubles don't take high pressures any better today than they did then. In other words, the .450 Nitro Express is already loaded to the eyes for double rifle use.

Also, for a double rifle to be useful for it's intended purpose, it must handle like a double rifle. It's two barrels cannot weigh double that of a single barrel rifle. The barrels must be fairly thin. Bullets that have a full diameter homogenous section, like the TBBC, can damage these thinner barrels because they lack a compressable lead core. Double rifles with overstressed rifling from the use of such bullets are common these days.

You seem to have wanted a 4-wheel-drive off-road vehicle, but bought an Aston-Martin instead. If you absolutely must use monolithic bullets at high velocity, then sell the Heym and get the Lott.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Again, the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw is a monolithic bullet and is not suitable for double rifles.

The Tropby Bonded solids have a LEAD CORE.

Dan:

Re-read my first paragraph, which you quoted in your reply. I said nothing about the Sledgehammer solid, which does have a lead core. I specifically referred to the Bear Claw, which has a lead core up front but not in the full caliber shank, which makes it a monolithic bullet.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I don't agree with everything 400NitroExpress has written here.

There are mono bullets that can be used safely in your Hyem, IMO. See an example of some in 500Grains post. I don't think pressure is so critical, as 400NitroExpress does, in your modren Hyem.

Still, the Trophy Bonded Bearclaws have a solid shank and using them is asking for trouble, not because of the rifling but because of the undue stress they may produce on the ribs. Why ask for trouble? Especially when there are perfectly suitable alternatives? These would include the Woodleigh softs and the Hornaday bonded softs too.

You can only push the performance of your rifle to its regulated loads, anymore and you will loose accuracy. And the performance of you rifle will be adequate and more with loads that match regulation.

As 400NitroExpress has made clear, a double rifle is not the most flexible rifle type. It doesn't suit being hopped up or loaded down well becuase of the regulation issue. And some bullets are just not a good idea because of the joints between the barrels and ribs. What a DR is is the most efficient rifle type for hunting DG, and your rifle, with loads that match what it was regulated for is perfectly suitable for that use.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

There are mono bullets that can be used safely in your Hyem, IMO. See an example of some in 500Grains post. I don't think pressure is so critical, as 400NitroExpress does, in your modren Hyem.

#

JPK

Ok so far i got it but what monometalbullets i can use?

This one i know pretty good:

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Kupferjagdgeschosse.htm

but i am interested in Solids with flat heads...

I have the barnes banded solids loaded in my .460 Weath. and for me they seem to be with real driving bands because only the last part will be touched by the fields...

The hornady encapsulated failed on buff because it tumbled, fishtailed and lost the lead completely...

Dont see any reason why the woodleighs should be better...

You're comparing apples and oranges again. There's a big velocity difference between the .460 Wby and the .450 NE. But I give up. It's your gun, do what you want.

JPK, we disagree. If anything, the new rifles seem to come off face faster than the old. I know of no monolithic bullet that has been proven safe in double rifles. To my knowledge, no bullet manufacturer has done adequate testing with the banded design that is relevant to double rifles.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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400ne - FYI - Fortunately, Mike www.northforkbullets.com is working on this type of pressure and barrel expansion testing now, or will be soon.

I expect positive results for his bullets in doubles. Either way, we'll have some concrete evidence as it pertains to his driving-band design.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
You're comparing apples and oranges again. There's a big velocity difference between the .460 Wby and the .450 NE. But I give up. It's your gun, do what you want.

JPK, we disagree. If anything, the new rifles seem to come off face faster than the old. I know of no monolithic bullet that has been proven safe in double rifles. To my knowledge, no bullet manufacturer has done adequate testing with the banded design that is relevant to double rifles.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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400NE i didnt compare the 460 with the 450!

I just wanted to say that the barnes banded seem to have real driving bands to me.

For example:

The "kupferjagdgeschosse" are proven and the result is that the barrel keeps longer cool than with other used bullets!

But this bullets are only "Softpoints" and i am looking for flat nosed monometal solids...

By the way on my 460 i have the Triple-Mag from pachmayer it is great but i dont want to have that ugly desing on my double.

What is the most effective recoilpad i would like to have a red one...

Barnes bullets aren't suitable for a double rifle. The bands are too large and there is not the room for displaced metal as on the North Fork or Bridger designs. Also any mono metal where the bullet shank is larger than the diameter between the lands is sure to be problematic.

For a solid look to Woodleighs or the Bridgers shown in 500 Grains post or the Northforks. You have two choices there for flat point solids. I use Woodleighs and they have performed perfectly on buffalo and elephant at 2090fps and should be fine quite a bit faster than that. Certainly to any velocity your 450NE will have been regulated to. All of my recovered Woodleighs have been round and unblemished except for the rifling marks.

The Woodleighs are more stoutly constructed than Hornidays current bullet and the former steel jacketed one as well, I have been told. Either way the DR standard is the Woodleigh solid and it has performed reliably for years.

For softs the new Hornaday 500 grain bonded .458" soft point should be just great in your 450NE, the Woodleigh bonded softs are sure to be just fine.

400 Nitro Express,

I don't think your experience would be the same if the comparison was between rifles of similar quality only. What do you think? For example, would a Holland & Holland 470 made today come off face any faster than one made 50 years ago, 100 years ago?

JPK

Since I don't know how to edit, I'll add that rejointing a double is no big deal anyway.

JPK

Those Bridgers in the pics look engraved down to the shank to me...possibly it is my fading eye sight?

I shoot a few of the Barnes Banded Solids...but I gave them up ....why take the chance..until some real testing is done...

For solids I am using Mike Brady's North Fork Cups and Flat Nose...I have not recovered any North Fork's to see if they are engraved on the shank...but his design, at least from appearances, looks like they may not engrave on the shank...I look forward to his test results as well

jjs,

I looked more closely. It seems the one in the middle is down to the shank but the others don't seem to be. Tight bore?

JPK

JPK:

Hard to tell by pics but 5&6 and last two look to be engraved...but could just be my eyes...or pics...

The North Forks design looks more promising to me anyway.....

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
I specifically referred to the Bear Claw,

Sorry, the idea of softs did not occur to me at all. No joking - when I think doubles, I automatically think solids.

quote:

Originally posted by Safarischorsch:

Ok so far i got it but what monometalbullets i can use?

This one i know pretty good:

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Kupferjagdgeschosse.htm

I would use (and have used) the following driving band solids in doubles (but NOT Barnes because the bands are huge):

North Fork www.northforkbullets.com

GS Custom www.gscustom.co.za

Bridger www.custombrassandbullets.com

GS Custom FN solids:

North Fork:

If you are concerned about Woodleigh performance These 500 grain 470's were recovered from Buff, velocity was 2120 fps +/-. As I recall, the soft had 78% weight retention.

Ok thank you all!

Tomorrow i will contact Heym and ask them what they used for regulating and what they would use!

Please post their response. I also own a Heym.

Geronimo

quote:

Originally posted by Geronomo:
Please post their response. I also own a Heym.

Geronimo

Contacted Heym today, they told me that they always use ammunition from W. Romey when they regulate "Big DG Double Rilfles".

But i forgot to ask them for the solids...



Yea!!!!

Today i tried my new load with N 560 106gr behind the Hornady SP and 105 gr behind the hornady Solid encapsulated!

Big muzzle blast but 6 shots at 50 meters with open sights could be covered with a beermat!!!

Recoil more comfortable than with 91,5gr IMR 4350 and filler!

I will work on it but i think it is not so bad up to now!