One of the reasons I like this stuff so much is the history of it. There was a really good article about 5 years ago about the development of the 450 nitro and first rifle in Handloader Magazine. There has been a long running thread in the big bore action on the various 400 Whelens.

The 500 ne is often cited as being the second most popular, for modern rifles, double cartridge (at least in big bores). However, I cannot find much history on its development and introduction.

Please can you gentlemen give me a history lesson on the 500? If anyone wants to add info about any other cartridge, please feel free.

Thank you

The .500 began as a bpe round in the late 1860s and for the next few decades saw several changes in the brass case--from coiled to drawn and also in various lengths. The two that lasted into the nitro era were the 3 and 3 1/4 lengths. The 3" was loaded with .340 and sometimes 380-grain bullets, solid lead alloy, paper patched, hollow point, brass tube inserted in the nose, grease grooved, tapered, etc.. The longer case was loaded most commonly with 440-grain bullets. The longer case was loaded by Holland and a few others, I presume to go one up on the 3" case with lighter projectiles. The 3" case used 5 drams or 136 grains of Curtis and Harvey's no6 powder and the 3 1/4" used a bit more--142 grains. I have read the longer case also was loaded with 480-grain projectiles but I haven't seen them myself.

The same two cases carried over to the nitro era. Some reports were the thin rim on this case, the .450, the .500-450 and others had, at times in the heat of the tropics, difficulty extracting. That is why Jeffery used a thicker rim on his cases.

Both the nitro cases used the same powder charge and bullet weight.

The above said, cartridge collecting books will show many exceptions to the rules. one has 28 variations in bullet style, weight, and case length and case construction.

Cal

Mr. Cal: Thank you. I did not know the 3 inch bpe version was loaded with lighter bullets. Do you know who/what firm first took the 500 bpe to the nitro dangerous game load? I assume that the 3 1/4 inch case was first to make the transition?

I don't know who was the first, but as all makers made the bpe version it is anyone's guess who was first with the nitro round. Since there was no patent on it, it could have been anyone.
I also don't know which length was the first in the nitro era.
That said, the first big game round was the .450 3 1/4 in 1898, so it was after that.
Cal
PS. The nitro for black load used the 440-grain bullets in the 3" case, loaded with 55 grains of cordite.

Thank you Mr. Cal. I have taken notes.

You should think of my Double Rifle Primer book. I'm confident others here will attest to its value.
Cal

I was no novice to double rifles when I ordered all of Cal's books but I certainly learned more than previously known after reading them. Every tome written by a competent and dedicated author/double aficionado, such as Cal, can offer insights to novice/journeyman/expert. In other words, we are always learning and never be afraid to ask questions.

Mr. Cal: The very same thought had crossed my mind. I was going to get it as a Christmas present to myself. Please pm me ordering info as I could not find it on your website. Does the book have info on what reloading press and tools you suggest one should purchase.

Mr. Dutch: Thankyou for your endorsement. I agree you cannot know too much of something.

LHeym:
Email me at <pappas@mtaonline.net> and I will send the details of the Primer and also my other two if you develop an interest. If all are bought, I cover the postage. The Primer is $70 with 16 P&H--insured priority mail USPS.
Cheers,
Cal

Lheym,
Great Idea! I received that same book last Christmas!

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Lheym,
Great Idea! I received that same book last Christmas!

Glad to see you have your priorities right. On your dying day you won't be wearing the fancy shirt, you won't be able to hold up the fancy double and you won't be able to read that fancy book of Cal's but at least someone can wet your lips with a little of Gods delight, and then pray some asshole cop doesn't have his breathalyzer out at the Pearly Gate

I always found it interesting that the 500 bpe was very popular. Whether in the 3" or the 3 1/4", there is no shortage of vintage rifles chambered in those rounds. Vintage nitro rifles in the 500s are a different story altogether. Based on the scarcity of vintage 500 nitros it wasn't a very popular chambering.

I suspect most went with one of the various 450-470-475 calibers and if they wanted more went on up to the 577s and above.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
I always found it interesting that the 500 bpe was very popular. Whether in the 3" or the 3 1/4", there is no shortage of vintage rifles chambered in those rounds. Vintage nitro rifles in the 500s are a different story altogether. Based on the scarcity of vintage 500 nitros it wasn't a very popular chambering.

I suspect most went with one of the various 450-470-475 calibers and if they wanted more went on up to the 577s and above.

same observation here,
lots of 500 BPE's as compared to 500 NE's

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
I always found it interesting that the 500 bpe was very popular. Whether in the 3" or the 3 1/4", there is no shortage of vintage rifles chambered in those rounds. Vintage nitro rifles in the 500s are a different story altogether. Based on the scarcity of vintage 500 nitros it wasn't a very popular chambering.

I suspect most went with one of the various 450-470-475 calibers and if they wanted more went on up to the 577s and above.

same observation here,
lots of 500 BPE's as compared to 500 NE's

I don't know about this.
While there is no shortage of 500bpe rifles, I don't know why they are not common in the nitro chambering. As to hunters upsizing to a .577, again I don't know if this is true. In the records I've kept, I've found many more .600s than .577s, have records of WR stating the .577 is superior to the .600 of Jeffery, and the factory ledgers I have shows far more .600s than .577s.
It will remain a mystery.
Cal

I too have seen more 500bpes than 500nes and that is on my rather bare local gun show circuit. Does anyone know who the first firm was to nitro up the 500. Offen you will see Westly Richards stated as the first, but no citation, date, or firm employee given.

I believe Taylor is the authority that is often cited as the 500 not being popular in the vintage/golden era. I personally do not believe this is accurate because JA Hunter's brace of 500s spand a number of makers. The one I am most familiar with was/is the Boswell. Thus, I think the 500, like the 400 Jeffery, was released to the trade. I am under the impression that 500 HH royals are very scarce.

What say the body?

Hunters last .500 NE was a William Evans, Anson & Deely action, automatic ejectors and 24" barrels.

Tony Sanchez Arino was offered the rifle around 1960, along with 300 rounds of ammo for £300 but could not afford it (he tells about it in one of his books..)

Hunter died at Makindu, Kenya in 1963, 83 years old.

Tony claim it is one of the sorrows of his life that he could not afford to buy it at the time even if it was moderately priced.

Mr. Pondoro:
Thank you for the information. If I remember a long time ago about 2008ish, Mr. Mjines posted about the Boswell when it came on the market. The Nitro Express forum had a lot of pictures of it.

The 500 BPE was very popular in India. Not sure about Africa.

Taylor says the same.

I have come across 500 BPE rifles and many many stories about their use even into the 1970s. People were still coming up with old ammo in lead sealed tins.

JA Hunter's 500s were Nitros and not BPE

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I believe Taylor is the authority that is often cited as the 500 not being popular in the vintage/golden era. I personally do not believe this is accurate because JA Hunter's brace of 500s spand a number of makers. The one I am most familiar with was/is the Boswell. Thus, I think the 500, like the 400 Jeffery, was released to the trade. I am under the impression that 500 HH royals are very scarce.

What say the body?

My 500 3 1/4" was a Royal. Not sure they are that scarce.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:


Please can you gentlemen give me a history lesson on the 500? If anyone wants to add info about any other cartridge, please feel free.

Thank you

I'm certainly not qualified to give a history lesson but did come across some interesting information when reading about the 450NE on the other thread.
In a June 1902 Kynoch publication, they state that the 500 had a bit of a lackluster reputation because it was originally loaded with the exact same charge and bullet weight of the 450NE, 70gr Cordite and a 480gr bullet.
This made the velocity of around 2000fps and with the poor sectional density of the bullet, was not a very good performer.
In 1901, Webley had Kynoch load the 500 with a 570gr bullet and 80grs of Cordite for a velocity of 2170fps which upped the energy substantially.
Again, Kynoch mentions that a reduced load of 75grs Cordite and a 480gr bullet will get 2100fps and is a very satisfactory load for sportsmen "who do not require the utmost that can be got out of a rifle of this calibre."

I'm guessing that the 500NE in its original guise would have been introduced right on the heels of the 450 for there to be actual field reports getting back to Webley and Kynoch thereby inducing them both to make a more potent loading.
BTW, the test gun which Kynoch used for the 500NE was a 1902 patent Webley falling block and as the data was published in June of 1902 must have been a very early example indeed. The patent was granted on March 15th of the same year!

Thank you Mr. Huvuris. The Heym historian at the shoot indicated it was his belief that a nitro 500 predated the rigby. Your information makes this seem possible.

It seems your Webley 02 in 500 3 inch with 750 grain bullet is very historical choice.