Hi All,

I'm new to the Double rifle scene.
I'm just about to acquire and old 1906 double in .450 Nitro 3 1/4" . I've done lots of reloading over the years and a lot of terminal ballistics stuff in .223, .308 and .338 Lap Mag. But, I've no experience with this calibre. I do a lot of working up loads using 'Quickload' software and have been successful with R17 and Barnes TSX in .375.
I know your a busy man but would be very grateful of any advice and starting loads and powders for the .450 Nitro. The rifle I'm acquiring has been shot in competitions by the previous owner with IMR 3031, so I have a start point. I'm interested in producing a reduced load and a lighter bullet for range practice so guidance and start point (filler or no filler?) would be great.
Many thanks in anticipation
Regards
Clive (from London UK)

Hi All,

Sorry, I forgot to add if anyone has experience of using "Trail Boss" to make reduced loads in this .450 Nitro calibre in order not to have to use filler? The Quickload for 480gr DGX and 33 grains of Trail Boss gives 96.4%fill, 33000PSI, Velocity 1360fps and 2000ft.lbs. What thoughts does anyone have on this a starter based on your experiences please?
Regards to all
Clive (Munty)

Good morning Clive. I have a new (Verney Carron) double and for my loads I prefer H-4831 but I have tried IMR. I used Woodleigh 490gr bullets as well as the new CEB 450gr monometals. I've never tried reduced loads as you ask, but for full power loads, I'd start around 94gr and work my way up. If you do a search here I'm sure you'll find a few recipes for reduced loads and also some of our other members will chime in with their loads for you.

What kind of rifle are you getting? We're all double rifles "lunatics" here so let us know! Cheers and welcome, jorge

Hi George,

Thank you, I have been in touch with Cal Pappas, Sam and Michael amongst others. Everyone is so helpful, I think we all sing off the same song sheet.
It's a Cogswell and Harrison Hammer gun from 1906 excellent bores, a bit on the heavy side at 13 1/5 lbs, but that should be pleasant to shoot I think?
I'm waiting to acquire it once my license is varied, that may take four to five weeks. As soon as I have it in my hands, I'll take some pictures and post to you.
Best regards
Clive

Looking forward to the pictures! Too bad on all that licencing stuff! I'm a committed Anglophile, but all those restrictions drives us Yanks crazy what!

quote:

Originally posted by munty:
Hi All,

Sorry, I forgot to add if anyone has experience of using "Trail Boss" to make reduced loads in this .450 Nitro calibre in order not to have to use filler? The Quickload for 480gr DGX and 33 grains of Trail Boss gives 96.4%fill, 33000PSI, Velocity 1360fps and 2000ft.lbs. What thoughts does anyone have on this a starter based on your experiences please?
Regards to all
Clive (Munty)

Munty,

HOLD UP!! Trailboss is a separate issue and I wouldn't use Quickload for it under ANY circumstances!! I've done a fair amount of Trailboss loads now for a couple of NE rounds, specifically the 500NE and the 577NE. There is a very easy formula to use but the one overriding thing to remember with TB is NEVER COMPRESS IT! EVER! NO FILLER!

OK, so to get started with TB, measure on your brass case, the point where the bottom of a properly seated bullet would be. Fill the case to that point with TB then weigh the charge. Take 70% of that number for your starting load. You can then work up to the maximum load if so desired, which will be the bottom of the properly seated bullet. However, I've never found any reason to increase above that 70% point. You'll find that TB will be very similar to shooting a 223 in terms of recoil. There just won't be any to speak of. Velocity will be around 1,000fps. Regulation may or may not be satisfactory. In my guns, TB loads were spread about 6 inches. That's fine for shooting paper, maybe even pigs!

You'll hear some commentary concerning "Graeme Wright" stating not to use TB in NE doubles in his book. That is not exactly correct. Graeme locked up a Black Powder Express rifle, not a Nitro Express rifle. Furthermore, he was compressing the powder in an attempt to replace black powder with TB, thereby achieving the BP velocities of 1,800fps or so. He was not shooting reduced loads in a full Nitro gun and where he ran into problems was from compressing the powder.

For me, the real benefit of shooting TB loads is similar to ending the big bore range session with a 22LR or 17HMR. It allows you to focus on technique, knowing you are not going to get pounded when the round goes bang! I use a 17HMR, or TB, after the first 6 shots or so with the big gun, then repeat. I always end the session with my 17HMR, just to reset my mind for proper trigger control so as not to develop the desire to flinch. I do the same with pistols. After I shoot my 454 Casull, I shoot a magazine from the 22LR pistol (as long as you can find shells for it ).

Welcome to the double gun addiction!

munty,
my experience with Trail Boss is that velocity was too slow for my 450/400 double to regulate. I have read that others have had the same
results. I love it for my single barrel guns where regulation isn't an issue, but it wouldnt work for my double.
For light bullet loads, I have had great success with AA5744. An email to Accurate Arms will get you some load data for the bullet weights you want to use for your .450.

Good luck with your loads and congrats on your double.

Todd,

Many thanks for the safety advice, I saw that on the website for the powder, I'll make sure I'm nowhere near a maximum load. I'll do the 70% of volume with a lighter bullet and see if that's anywhere the full house regulation, so that I can practice cheaper and with out full stress.
Regards
Clive

Dejoins, Todd, etc ...all of you who have taken the time and trouble to reply to me on this, thank you.
As soon as I become a true "Double Gun" owner I will post photos of the Cogswell.thanks again guys.
Clive

Dear All,

An update for those that have been most helpful to me with their advice. I have only just managed to get a set of reloading dies and there for have given the Cogswell it's first outing to the range. I tried 27gr (70% fill) of Trail Boss. result was very mild recoil but as I was told by one of you, it didn't regulate with both barrels going high and left at50yds. I then tried 66gr x IMR3031 behind a 480gr Hornady DGS, this seemed to be perfect for elevation but the left and right barrels were 8 inches apart.
I've been told that if I increase velocity they will close up, is this your experience too.
If I knew how to post a picture on this website, you would see me taking my first shot, whilst wearing a British "Pith Helmet" !!. No Zulus were injured during the taking of this picture!
Regards to all
Clive
UK

Munty,

Congratulations on jumping into the world of double rifles. I caught the bug 10 years ago and still can't shake it, hope I never do!

You would be wise to get a copy of Graeme Wright's book. 3031 has long been out of favor as a suitable powder for double rifles.

I would also advise getting a chronograph so you know what your loads are doing. The rifles cost too much and are too rare to risk an issue.

Enjoy and continue keeping us posted.

Munty:
Got you PMs. Thanks for the inclusion.

I use IMR 4831 in all of my nitro express rifles--both past and present as it has worked so well for me. To be safe, start in the low 90-grain range and work up using a chronograph. You are looking for acceptable accuracy and not maximum velocity. Stopping point should be in the mid 90s range, say 94-95-96 grains. You should not need filler. Use magnum primers for the best ignition.

Welcome to the world of double rifles. We will all follow your posts over the years for your second, then third, then ....., well you get it. Once bitten... For some nice pics of double rifles check out my website <calpappas.com> for your enjoyment.
cheers,
Cal

After experimentations with faster RL series and spacers as well as slow powders-
I too seem to return to the 4831 speed powders (AA3100 etc)-

Thanks for your input, I appreciate that. Good news is I've just acquired a tub of 4831, so I'll follow yours and many others advice and start working up loads.
Regards
Clive

Munty, if Norma powder is available in UK you might use Normas N4..

I load for my double in .475x3 1/4 NE and it regulates well at 50m with 94 grains and woodleigh 480 grain soft..

This cartridge is much the same as .450...same shell necked up to a .483 bullet.

I would probably steer clear of Trailboss for the 450 NE.
Sherman Bell found it to give high pressures for the velocity acheived.
Give 4198 a try with a 350gr. bullet.
Right around 50grs gives you roughly the light cordite or NfB load and is a pleasure to shoot.
I use right at 50gr with a .5" backer rod filler of about an inch long and Berry's 350gr copper clad bullets. I know you asked for no filler loads, but the backer rod is soooo easy to use there is no reason IMO to discount its use.
Of course, I am shooting this in a single so can't say anything about regulation.

Dear Pondoro and Huvius,

Thanks for your help. Unfortunately I've never see Norma powder here in the UK. We have Hodgdon, IMR, Alliant Reloader, and Vhitavouri, in the main.
The Trail Boss worked very well with low recoil and obviously low velocity, I'm guessing about 1000fps, I've not chronographed it yet. At 25yds trying to get 4 shots froma double under leaner, non ejector hammer gun was a challenge in 16 seconds!!!! It's a great cheap way of practicing your skills though.
I've got the IMR 4831 and some Dacron filler, so I'll be trying that when I return from Namibia on October 2nd.
Thanks again guys
Regards
Clive

Hi All,

It's been a while since posting here. My update is that I have found the sweet spot for my Cogswell & Harrison .450 Nitro 3 1/4". I am paper patching a lead bullet resized from .458 down to .451, then two wraps of 9lb onion skin paper with a light lube of 55% / 45% bees wax and vaseline. This mics up at .457 and produces a 50 metre zero with left and right barrels about 2/3" appart. I am using 85 grains of Reloader 17 and a Fed 215 promer and dacron wadding filler. I've just started to cast my own with a Lee mold that my friend has loaned me and it seems really satisfying thing to do.
The good thing about this load, is that it is compatable with my 480 grain woodleigh JSP load at 87grains of R17.
I look forward to hearing anyones observations.
best regards
Clive

Welcome back Munty. That appears to indeed be the sweet spot for your rifle. Are you weighing your dacron filler for consistency? what velocities are you getting? It seems like the 2gr difference in powder is minimal. I've never tried RL-17, but did not do well with 15 and a filler in my 450. Cheers, jorge

George I have a IMR 3031 load that I got from Champlin Arms when I bought my Gibbs it calles for 2grns of poly I bumped it to 3grns and the load improved I then tried 4grn of poly and the load became very erratic and the sky filled with poly every time I pulled the trigger. I still use the same load but now use the Kynoch foam filler.

I do not own a DR and I am no expert. But I have been reading 2 editions of Graeme Wright's great book on shooting the British DR.

I am looking forward to seeing the photos.

Enjoy your rifle Munty! 450 NE is where cordite began
me thinks...

Thanks guys for replying,

I am thinking of purchasing a 'paper Patch' mold from a company in Winnipeg, Canada. Their website below shows some nice addjustable, hollow base molds in .45 and he says he can produce to whatever diameter I want to throw the bullets out (ie .451) in my case. Does anyone have experience in this field that they can share with me or knowledge of this mold maker?
Many thanks
Regards
Clive


http://kal.castpics.net/

Munty: Drop a PM to sharpsguy here on the forum. Very knowledgeable in this arena. j

While I shoot a 470 not a 450, my reduced loads use Accurate 5744. No filler needed, no magnum primers needed and regulates very well with cast bullets in my VC. If you can get that it would be well worth a look.


.

Munty
Just a thought on Trail Boss here is so info from a previous post on using Trail Boss with my 1905 Gibbs 450 NE.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...031091091#3031091091
Recently I have been shooting 405gr cast bullets in front of a 70% TB load, the POI is a few inches below POA using the 50yrd leaf, but by flipping up either the 100yrd or 200yrd leaf it will put the rounds pretty much under the front sight.
If you are just killing paper don't get too hung up on how well the bullets regulate the drill is to get trigger time using the same gun same triggers same sight picture with out beating you or your gun up.
Best with your shooting we are all waiting for pictures..

Hi Zephyr,

Thanks, I too have had some success with Trailboss and. 405gr. FMJ with approx 70% load.
In my case it resulted in shots about 8" high at 50 meters, but acceptable lateral deviation between left and right barrel of about 5". Very nice and soft on the recoil.
I'm afraid I don't know how to post pictures on this website? Any advice?
Best regards
Clive