Can anyone here tell me what/how you go about installing a scope on the Model 141 Merkel double rifle? A quick detach setup is what I would be interested in. Thinking of buying one of these guns but have no idea what's involved in scoping one with a QD system. Any and all help appreciated. Thanks.

Larry Sellers

Larry,

Go to the New England Custom Guns web page....They have what you need.


Then get David Yale of "SMT" in Yellowjacket Co to get it done!

JW

Larry

You have a couple of choices.

You can get claw mounts installed. That would be the most pricey option but in my view it is the best solution. I know Champlins installs these. I plan to have these installed at the factory in my 9.3 X 74 which should be here in December.

Take a look at Rusty's post on his new Chapoowee. That was done by Evolution. If I remember correctly they do a modified Talley set up. Have to ask Rusty how she performs.

NE Custom also does some fine work. I had them put a QD mount on my Mauser - they inlet the bridges so the scope twists onto the bridges. They also had to midify the safety from a Mauser to a Winchester type. It goes right back to zero every time. NE Custom also does work on doubles - I think they are an authorized shop for Heym.

tomo577 has some claw mounts for Merkels. The price is very good and the mounts are first quality German mounts. I have a set being installed on my 141 at present time. Would have done it myself but to do it perfectly required a little mill work on mine. Could actually have been fitted by hand. Don't know what Merkel factory mounts look like but the rib on mine was cut for mount bases. Only fitting is done to the mount.

Thanks to all who have posted so far. From what everyone is saying it is a "gunsmith" operation to get a Merkel 141 scoped up? I am leaving for Namibia on May 18, and don't even have the gun yet, so it most likely isn't something that could be done in time for this trip. It is not going to be my "primary" gun for the trip, that has already been taken care of. Just got this wild idea that it might be nice to take a double in 9.3 X 74R along with the CZ550 in 9.3 X 62. I guess I could take it unscoped, but that would really put a close range situation into effect. One last question? What would be the approximate cost of claw mounts and installation by a good smith?? Thanks again.

Larry Sellers

One option popular in Europe is to add a small red dot scope like the Doctor Optic. Does not look traditional but is very fast. Doctor Optic makes a adapter that attaches using the two screws holes that are already on the rib holding the flat plate at the breech end of the barrels.
If you are going to use a conventional scope I prefer the twist off mounts to claw mounts, the reason is that its much easier to change scopes and get higher/lower or off set rings or have a second scope already set up. Having a new set of claw rings fitted is a expensive operation and not everyone can do it.
MAK http://kilic.hk-kundenzugang.de/
EAW http://www.eaw.de/eaw/index.php
Recknagel http://www.recknagel.de/
I considered Talley rings but then heard reports of them not returning to zero.

Thanks Kebco

I had heard the Docter Optic sight might be an alternative but knew nothing about them. The links you provided really helped. This might be just the ticket for my "short timeframe" situation. I can deal with the scop mount at a later time, but still have a decent setup for my upcoming hunt. Anyone else have any experience with this Red dot type of setup on the Merkels? All comments appreciated.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
One option popular in Europe is to add a small red dot scope like the Doctor Optic. Does not look traditional but is very fast. Doctor Optic makes a adapter that attaches using the two screws holes that are already on the rib holding the flat plate at the breech end of the barrels.
If you are going to use a conventional scope I prefer the twist off mounts to claw mounts, the reason is that its much easier to change scopes and get higher/lower or off set rings or have a second scope already set up. Having a new set of claw rings fitted is a expensive operation and not everyone can do it.
MAK http://kilic.hk-kundenzugang.de/
EAW http://www.eaw.de/eaw/index.php
Recknagel http://www.recknagel.de/
I considered Talley rings but then heard reports of them not returning to zero.

Sorry guys - Just noticed there is already a thread on "red dots for doubles". But thanks in advance for any help with my specific application to a Merkel Model 141 double.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Thanks Kebco

I had heard the Docter Optic sight might be an alternative but knew nothing about them. The links you provided really helped. This might be just the ticket for my "short timeframe" situation. I can deal with the scop mount at a later time, but still have a decent setup for my upcoming hunt. Anyone else have any experience with this Red dot type of setup on the Merkels? All comments appreciated.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
One option popular in Europe is to add a small red dot scope like the Doctor Optic. Does not look traditional but is very fast. Doctor Optic makes a adapter that attaches using the two screws holes that are already on the rib holding the flat plate at the breech end of the barrels.
If you are going to use a conventional scope I prefer the twist off mounts to claw mounts, the reason is that its much easier to change scopes and get higher/lower or off set rings or have a second scope already set up. Having a new set of claw rings fitted is a expensive operation and not everyone can do it.
MAK http://kilic.hk-kundenzugang.de/
EAW http://www.eaw.de/eaw/index.php
Recknagel http://www.recknagel.de/
I considered Talley rings but then heard reports of them not returning to zero.

Larry
A few weeks ago I went to a cqarbine schol where I experimented with several diffferent Red dot sights, including the Insite, Aimpoint, EO-Tech, and a Doctor Optic. I have also shot a Ziess Z Point.

For your short time frame I would definately go ahead and have the Doctor Optic mounted.

You probably want the one with the 3.5 MOA dot.

The Doctor is the most compact of the group.
I found it very easy to sight in.

It automatically adjusts for the light conditions.

As far as accuracy goes I have found that I can shoot groups just as tight with a red dot sight as I can with an 8 power scope.
This is on the standard Colt Carbine, shooting prone on the ground, not with a "Match Grade" AR.

I think for Big Bore doubles and bolt rifles the Doctor Optic might be the best choice of the red dots because of its size.

The dot appears very sharp and clear to me.

The picture above is what the Merkel QD scope mounting system looks like!

actually the rib on the merkel is wide enuf sothat you can just mill a couple of dovetail slots into the side and mout the scope with leupold detachable rings. (yes i did it and it works fine)

Larry I used Leupold Weaver type QDs on my 141. I machined bases from a weaver rail. It works great and is a lot cheaper than claw mounts. Claw mounts run about $1000.00 in parts and labor. All 4 of the 141s I've seen needed to see a gunsmith before they went anywhere. Trigger pulls in th 10-12 lb range and the guns are so tight some won't let the greener lock up all the way when you close it. The regulation needs to be checked with your loads. I also reccomend having the auto safety disabled if it might be used for anything big and nasty. 141s are great little guns, but they are far from ready to shoot right out of the box.

quote:

Originally posted by SWD:
Larry I used Leupold Weaver type QDs on my 141. I machined bases from a weaver rail. It works great and is a lot cheaper than claw mounts. Claw mounts run about $1000.00 in parts and labor.

SWD, do the Weaver type bases return the scope to absolute zero? If not, are they worth what you saved over the claw, or factory mounts? However, if they do, and you can stand the way they look then you made a good deal, by milling them in the rib yourself. You are correct that Claw mounts are expensive, but are the best money can buy, and second is the swivel type that is used by the factory. I have one double That has Warnne rings and bases, another with a swivel, and a third with claw mounts, and all are good, but I don't think I'd be prone to mount anything like the weaver base on a double rifle. Of course that is only a personal thing, so if they work, and you like them that's all that counts!

quote:

All 4 of the 141s I've seen needed to see a gunsmith before they went anywhere. Trigger pulls in th 10-12 lb range and the guns are so tight some won't let the greener lock up all the way when you close it. The regulation needs to be checked with your loads. I also reccomend having the auto safety disabled if it might be used for anything big and nasty. 141s are great little guns, but they are far from ready to shoot right out of the box.

The trigger pulls being 10-12 lb pull is cause for work, that is a given, the action being very tightly fitted is not! All Merkels, as well as other new double rifles are always as tight as a drum, when new. I have two Merkel double rifles,a 140-2, 470NE, and 140E 9.3X74R both, when new, were as tight as you suggest,but with a few rounds poked through the barrels the actions are as smooth as a baby's butt. This also applies to SKB shotguns, as well as several other brands of shotguns, and double rifles, and is par for the course for new double rifles.
I don't have any personal experience with the 141 Merkel, other than handleing Brian1's 141 at the DRSS hunt/shoot. in January, and I didn't find it to be overly tight nor heavy of trigger. The 141 has adjustable regulation, I believe, and so it would follow that it would need adjusting for your loads, when delivered.

Frankly, I don't see any of these things, other than the trigger adjustment, as a negative to the quality of Merkel's double rifles, but simply break-in related.

MacD37, As has been noted in these columns before my 141 is different from the norm. Do you know where you can buy the front dovetail part shown in your 141 picture and also the matching rings. My 141 has the rear base as shown in the photo but just a plain blank in the dovetail. I'm in the process of mounting claws but quite frankly they are a pain in the ass to mount. It really amazes me that these people of such precision can't build a drop in set of mounts. Any GOOD tool room machinist could do it. There is absolutely no reason these mounts should not be fuly interchangable on a given model. I have fitted Rugers and Leupolds on other doubles with complete success.

The front dovetail on MacD37:s Ds is not really a dovetail, it´s the front mount for a swing mount, like apels or EAW or other.


They are great, return to zero, are cheaper to mount than claw mounts and you also can fit a second pair of ring on your own, no smithing needed.

Most people with swing mounts here in Sweden have to scopes and open back up sights, one scope for night or lowlight and one for driven hunts.

The claw mounts has to be smith fitted due to the extremly small toleranses that are allowed and for the wery fact that the bases cant all be exactly the same on all rifles.

Best regards Chris.

MacD37, I was'nt trying to be negative about the 141. Larry is going to Africa in a little over a month and I just wanted to point out that a brand new double that he has not even recieved yet needs a bit of work to be Africa ready. Finding a qualified gunsmith that can do the work in that limited of a time frame might be hard.
The Leupold Weavers return to zero great. I spent many hours at the mill contouring each base to match the style of the gun. They look nothing like a cut up and stuck on piece of weaver rail.
We had 4 141s come through our shop, and I liked them enough to have to keep one for myself, and would buy buy another. But I would recomend that anyone buying one for a hunting trip get it at least 6 months in advance so all the right things can be done. All that said I hope Larry's 141 is as much fun for him as mine has been for me!

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
MacD37, As has been noted in these columns before my 141 is different from the norm. Do you know where you can buy the front dovetail part shown in your 141 picture and also the matching rings. My 141 has the rear base as shown in the photo but just a plain blank in the dovetail. I'm in the process of mounting claws but quite frankly they are a pain in the ass to mount. It really amazes me that these people of such precision can't build a drop in set of mounts. Any GOOD tool room machinist could do it. There is absolutely no reason these mounts should not be fuly interchangable on a given model. I have fitted Rugers and Leupolds on other doubles with complete success.

ZIM, somebody said TOMO577 had some of the Merkel scope mounts, but I'm not sure. It is usually better to order the rifle with them installed at the maker, but baring that The EAW would be the second best choice. I hapane to have a set of claw mounts off an old Mauser mountain sporter rifle that I'm going to have JJ mount on my 470NE, but my 9.3X74R 140E is going to have a set of EAW swivel mounts.

Christian N, I think what was meant was the front base is dovetailed into the quarter rib. It is a swivel mount like the EAW. He was saying that he hase the back one, but the front has only a blank dovetailed in the front, and was looking for the front mount!

SWD, I understood that! The reason I commented the way I did, is there are alot of new commers to double rifles here, and some may not have understood your point. I simply wanted to make it clear that none of the things you listed is a valid reason to not buy a Merkel double rifle. I've owned many Merkel shotguns over the yrears, and have never had a bad one. Of course, most were used when I got them, and work may have already been done. The new ones however have always been tight as Scottsmen's purse, but limber up with a little break-in.

The guy's short time to safari, is a draw back, but if he will give JJ a call, he may do a rush job for him before his safari! It's worth a phone call! I know he usually has EAW bases, and rings in stock.

..........good hunting

Ok I see a slight miss on my behalf,

the link to EAW Ernst Apel: http://www.eaw.de/eaw/index_uk.php/item/296

More specific: http://www.eaw.de/eaw/index_uk.php/item/299

One can find all parts there and also match them.

The rear blank will have to be drilled and tapped to be prepared as far as I can understand.

A god smith will mix and match to get a god low mount.


Best regards Chris.

Thanks guys - for all the comments and helpful hints. My Merkely 141 in 9.3 X 74R will be shipped today, so hopefully I will have in hand by Tues or Wed of next week. After some firsthand examination I'll be back with some specific questions. MacD37, I really like the looks of your scope mount set up. More later.

Larry Sellers

I guess it's to early, think that should be Merkel not Merkely!! Just hope I am not getting a Merkely??

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Thanks guys - for all the comments and helpful hints. My Merkely 141 in 9.3 X 74R will be shipped today, so hopefully I will have in hand by Tues or Wed of next week. After some firsthand examination I'll be back with some specific questions. MacD37, I really like the looks of your scope mount set up. More later.

Larry Sellers